I've been working on a small project the past week or so, and without getting into what I was doing, I wanted to jot down a few thoughts that came up that's worth mentioning here.

The past 20 years of performance cars have spoiled us alot, and I mean really badly. How many times have you read here that the Mustang GT is slow? How many times have you come across someone who derides a 100 mph quarter as somthing not very spectacular? Yesterday, someone insinuated that the Chrysler Crossfire was a slow car. Last week someone here swore up & down an LS1 Camaro that ran less than a 105 quarter wasn't being driven right.

One of the things I keep in my computer is a list of acceleration tests of every notable performance car, and the issue & magazine it was tested in, as well as it's advertised horsepower. Many models have tests from more than one magazine. Through this, I cut the bull from some of the claims here.

There are 2 things that stand out clearly in that list. One, even though power figures before 1972 were the generous "Gross" figures (basically a block with nothing but a water hose attached...post 1972 engines were rated "as installed", or "net"), there was still alot of fudging going on. Even so called "conservatively rated" engines many times simply don't add up when performance times are looked up.

The other even bigger thing that stands out is the fact that with very very few exceptions, performance cars of the 60s were EXPENSIVE!

ZL1 Corvettes & Camaros are viewed as the top Chevy engine of all time. But not only were these cars rare (600 or so made), and no faster than a good 2002 Z28, but these things nearly doubled the price...of a Corvette! Camaro was no better off. Hemis were nortoriously expensive. Yet the quickest Hemi Road Runners ran about 110 quarters, around 13 seconds. There were "factory racers" that went faster, but you couldn't actually buy them.

Throughout the 80s & 90s, performance cars got steadily quicker, with prices actually decreasing!!! The average price of a new car last year was about $30,000. Yet Camaro Z28s started around just $25K, could out run pretty much every actual production car of that era. The 2004 Grand Prix GTPs also costs below what the average new car price is today, but will out accelerate a 1966 tri-power GTO, and is within 0.4 seconds to 60, and 0.8 seconds in the quarter of a 1968 Ram Air II GTO!

(Don't reach for the old tire technology excuse... some of these runs were made on racing tires or slicks)

Yet the Ram Air II powered GTOs, like most all muscle cars of the day were typically somewhat above the average new car price at the time. That's why many were popular with carmakers....healthy profit margins.

I can tell you now that the days of buying high powered, RWD cars (especially V8s) for way below average new car prices is over, not just at GM, but everywhere. You'll still have the Mustang as an anomaly, and maybe a stray sedan here and there that will run with a GTP, but if you look at the price direction of the Cobra & GTO, you will have a pretty good idea of the future, both in performance and in price.

The fastest cars ever are in production today. Pick just about any car model, and level to level, today's cars are quicker hands down, and in top speed, it's no contest. Cars will soon be getting even quicker still. But those days of walking into a dealer and driving off with a V8 powered rocketsled for less money than the neighbor's mini van are about to become history.

The funny thing is that most will say it sucks because V8 performance cars will be getting too expensive, and others will be complaining that "affordable" RWD performance cars are too slow. But the reality will be that both camps have simply been spoiled for the past 20 years.

Me included.

 

When I was in high school, the 225HP Mustang GT was fast as nutz.

My Observations:

While the fastest sports cars are really fast (and expensive) and the average V6 sedan is extremely quick, the average sporty car no longer seems to have a power advantage over conventional sedans in the same price range. Those that do seem perrenially out of reach.

There is still no inexpensive RWD car. A small $17,000 RWD V6 sport coupe will sell. The V6 Mustang, which has little performance aspirations, sells by the truckload. Or consider: What if the Neon SRT-4 were RWD? How fun would it be?

Almost any car compared to the "dogs" of the 60's is fast. Even with heads, intake, cam, bigger carb, exhaust, headers and modern tires, my father's 289 Mustang is no faster than my 4.6L

Lastly,

I think airbags killed the coupe market. Airbags forced parents to put the kid seat in the rear - which is difficult to access in a coupe. I think people decided it was too much of a pain and took the easier way out.

 

Side tangent, the old 69 Z/28 RS 302 was where it was at with underrated performance. My pops went 12.5 with a bone stock one aside from 5.13 (yes) gears and slicks. But it had headers, 2.02 valves, 4bbl stock he said.

At any rate, looking at the next Supra, GTO, Cobra, C6, XLR... they're all going to be pretty expensive it looks like, although hopefully the general can keep the GTO under the $35k mark, esp when it moves stateside. Id think with the volume of it and the shared platform, the prices will go down in a few years....?

 

WERM brings up a VERY key point...

You no longer have to buy a sports coupe to get exceptional style and performance. Consider this...

What was the performance/style difference between a 1989 Trans Am and a 1989 Pontiac 6000 STE?

Now, what was the performance/style difference between an '02 Trans Am and an '02 GTP?

The gap has narrowed quite a bit, eh? I've sold several new Grand Prixs to former F body owners...they feel the car is more than sporty enough to satisfy their craving for style. Back in the '80s, to be cool, you had to have a T/A, IROC etc...not a 6000 STE or Celebrity. Now though, the 4 door sports sedan has hit the mainstream, and many see the sports car as being over the top.

I'm NOT giving up on the hope of affordable performance, though. I believe in a 5th gen, and I believe it will be a good deal. If it isn't, then after the GA is paid for, off to buy an IROC I go to fill the void left by having no new street terror...

 

i was thinking, it is just the tires, gotta be the tires
then i read this
"(Don't reach for the old tire technology excuse... some of these runs were made on racing tires or slicks)"
lol

 

A good article for comparison:

http://popularmechanics.com/automoti...rs/index.phtml

Old muscle cars weren't that fast, at least not stock. They have a lot more potential and are much easier to work on than your modern cars though, which is why they'll never lose appeal.

As for the future of RWD performance? I don't think it's all that grim. RWD is coming back in a big way, and more and more we're seeing cheap RWD cars coming out from everyone, BMW 1 Series and Pontiac Solstice stick out in my mind, Dodge Razor if it ever comes out...

These are cars that at least have the drivetrain layout to be fast, then the rest is in the hands of the brave mechanic at home. I'm a young guy, but it seems that in the olden days of muscle cars the factory performers were great, but most of your great memories are people who took the car that wasn't that great normally and did something crazy with it. Take the cheap base car, and put the good engine in it.

Right now that's happening, look at Honda Civics. What we need is a base car that actually has a good drivetrain and can drag race. Solstice looks really promising, imo.

 

Too bad the article's from 1997 and misses out on the LS1s. 14.45 seconds from a Z28-SS? Oy vey!

 

It misses the LS1s but it's still a very good reference. Agreed on the god awful run out of the Camaro though. Man, I ran faster than that with my automatic and Futura tires.

 

I found myself thinking about what guionM said about no more V8 RWD cars for the price or less than the price of the average car. I thought to myself that its not that big of a deal. Just give me a rwd car with 300 hp. It doesnt matter if the power comes from a turbo 4 banger or an inline 6, Just give me low 13's in a RWD car for 25 to 30 K and I'll be happy.

Well, the days are getting nicer here in Chicago and today I was in my Z06 Coming home on a road in a forest preserve. I decided to get on the car a little. At that moment I thought to myself, "Screw anything but a N/A big cube V8" I love the feel. Its just not the same with anything else. I just cant wait until I have my Camaro up and moving again. Im looking for 750 RWHP on pump or something close to pump gas.

Give me a Solstice in a turbo I5 and ill be happy. Give me a Solstice with The TrailBlazers all alloy 5.3 and ill be smiling like a 40 year old fat slob with a grand in one dollar bills at the end of a strip club's stage......

 

I agree, while RWD is definatley making a comeback, I'm afraid the days of (somewhat) affordable V8 RWD cars are numbered. Look at the mustang, the v6 models sell extremely well and the Mach One/Cobra are phemonemal cars. But it seems like the GT could be a lot quicker for what it is. A new Neon SRT-4 or even a 5 speed V6 altima or accord will run right with a new GT. I know its hard for me to tell Ford to make the GT cheaper and faster, but well that's what im doing. I like the looks of the 05 stang but im afraid it will be too expensive for the common car buyer.

 

Ford has said that the 05 mustang GT will cost the same as the departing year GT. The only price differnce would be to adjust for inflation. I also have seen rumors that the GT will be a 3 valve 4.6 making at least 300 HP. So we might get a great looking car that performs like the late Z28. I just like thundours oomph NOW!!! not at 5000rpm when the turbo spools....

PS.. I am aware that I own a turbo car, but it makes power NOW!!!

 

Oh really, thats good to hear. The 05 looks like it will be a hell of a car.

 

As far as I can tell, that's pretty much Mustang GT's gameplan. To be as quick as the last LS1s were. Mach1s will be quicker, and Cobras.....well...

The point of my post was 2 fold.

1. That for someone to call some of todays cars "slow" isn't honest. It simply shows how spoiled some people have become when cars that outrun old LS6 Chevelle SSs, or 440 6-pack Mopars (which actually were quicker than Hemis), and most other legendary muscle cars, are ridiculed.

2. That the Mustang GT aside, every V8 RWD car comming up on the horizon will be quicker than they ever have been in history, but they will be returning to where they were in the 60s in the way of affordability. All 3 carmakers view the $30,000 (and I don't mean the low $30,000 range) as affordable, and all view future RWD performance cars as a step above average.

In short, just like the 1960s, if you want a super high performance car, you're going to have to pay for it! Unlike the 1960s however, these won't be restricted, racers or COPO only cars, and the tests results you see in magazines will reflect the actual cars you buy in the showroom.

So, if you now aren't prepared to pay the price GTOs or Cobras, or the former Camaro SSs are going for (even the LX Magnum V8s will also be WELL into the $30K range!), you better get used to Mustang GTs, Solstices, FWD cars, or be ready to settle for V6s.

 

Really though Guion, I ask why. Why not make it a few more thousand dollars cheaper and sell alot more?? They would make more money that way and have many more customers by being more affordable for the people that really want them instead of making people have to settle for cheaper cars or models instead. I realize a top model musclecars place and importance, but IMO $30,000's and anything especially beyond mid-$30,000's is just ridiculous and overpriced.

 

My guess? They are asking the exact opposite. "Why not up the performance & charge for it?" That's what Ford's SVT has been doing for years, and they are making healthy profits. GM & Chrysler will be doing the same, just on a more widespread scale.

In truth, the only real reason we had performance cars so cheap the past decade (and make no mistake, Z28s even at $28,000 were cheap for it's performance) is because they were all based on old chassis. Now, with independent rear suspension (which alot of people here warned about the increased costs of it) newly redesigned, modern chassis, and Euro-style build quality & materials, the cars that will be making it all possible will be the profits from the upper end cars of the line.

This means the V8 performance versions of future cars.

Where are you going to turn? The current Mustang Cobra is currently the worlds quickest car for under $50,000.

There might be an article in Popular Hot Rodding magazine about this subject later this summer.