Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
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From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally posted by guionM:
New employees hired in a UAW job make between $14 and $20 per hour, depending on position and experience. roughly the range of a bouncer at a popular club, an assistant manager at Dennys, or a paygrade E3 fortunate enough to be working only 40 hours per week.
I'm sorry for some of you Phds who feel that's unfair. Next time get the your Phd if banking, or take up a trade. The truth is that uneducated, & unwashed plumbers and electricians can make 100 grand a year. 72% of all adults don't have college degrees, and it's not mandatory in many jobs. Thats life. Be glad you're in a job you like instead of worrying what everyone else is making.
New employees hired in a UAW job make between $14 and $20 per hour, depending on position and experience. roughly the range of a bouncer at a popular club, an assistant manager at Dennys, or a paygrade E3 fortunate enough to be working only 40 hours per week.
I'm sorry for some of you Phds who feel that's unfair. Next time get the your Phd if banking, or take up a trade. The truth is that uneducated, & unwashed plumbers and electricians can make 100 grand a year. 72% of all adults don't have college degrees, and it's not mandatory in many jobs. Thats life. Be glad you're in a job you like instead of worrying what everyone else is making.
Some people get an education, so they don't have to do these kind of jobs, even at the same salary. Some don't b/c, Life happens........
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From: Flounderville, MI, USA
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Guy, this isn't in anyway a criticism of you, but you covered just about all the major points I was going to touch on. So here goes....
Not sure I wanted to know that 
I believe he compared it to non-union US workers, but that was like 4 pages ago...
Ever hear of collective bargaining agreement? That means tha EVERYONE gets the EXACT same deal wheather they bust their butt on the line or clean toilets.
As a mechanic I'd be out on the street the minute my employer decides he can't afford me (work slowdown or whatever). So, whats different if you happen to work in an autoplant esp as an unskilled worker?
You're right it's easy thats why we're all having this discussion!! There definatly should be some responsibility to you're employees, but if for whatever reason their job is no longer needed, wheather by redundency/work slowdown or your own incompetance, why do you deserve to receive a higher wage than most ppl for doing nothing?
If you want to see the difference in the work environment between a UAW/ non-UAW plant, go spend some time at a big 5 plant. Talk with all the people you want to. Then go to the new Hyundi plant in Alabama (my dad went there as he is an engineer at a supplier) or the plant I worked at while in school (which has since gone union and EVERYONE's wages dropped down to the entry level wage, yup unions are good for the workers). Noone has dilly-dally time and when the line does stop, everyone picks up a broom and starts sweeping, none of this "ain't my job, call the floor sweeper guy" crap
[/rant]
sorry its late and i need to get some sleep so that I'm not late to work and get fired.
Originally Posted by guionM
Yeah, and I wear pink underwear.
Originally Posted by guionM
If he want's to compare wages of the UAW to something, why compare it to third world countries? I wouldn't work for those wages.
Originally Posted by guionM
As for the $65 grass mower, it's presented as if this is the norm. Do we know if perhaps this is a position and pay that went to a person who formerly worked on an assembly line for many years, but due to age or injury and a desire to work, he's assigned to mowing grass instead? The author conviently leaves this info out.
Originally Posted by guionM
GM's Craft Center makes SSRs. Ther is a 300+ day supply of SSRs now on lots. Most of the people that work there are sitting at home. Should they be kicked to the streets with no compensation because management decided to do an SSR instead of using the money to perhaps do a redesign on the "W" car? GM decided to close down the Ste Therese plant because they didn't plan ahead enough to make a 5th gen Camaro. Would it be right to cut everyone loose, with nothing more than a handshake?
Originally Posted by guionM
It's easy to sit in an armchair, and point to the lowly workers as the source of all your problems. But when you run a company, you have a responsibility to your employees. Not just because you don't want them to sabotage your product, but because it's the right thing to do.
Not sayingby any streach of the imagination that the UAW should skate away worry free from all of this. The UAW benefitted from the fat years. Now it's time for them to kick in their share to get everyone back in the game. They did it for Chrysler and Ford in the 80s, and again in recent years as both companies got back on track.
Not sayingby any streach of the imagination that the UAW should skate away worry free from all of this. The UAW benefitted from the fat years. Now it's time for them to kick in their share to get everyone back in the game. They did it for Chrysler and Ford in the 80s, and again in recent years as both companies got back on track.
thats why we're all having this discussion!! There definatly should be some responsibility to you're employees, but if for whatever reason their job is no longer needed, wheather by redundency/work slowdown or your own incompetance, why do you deserve to receive a higher wage than most ppl for doing nothing?If you want to see the difference in the work environment between a UAW/ non-UAW plant, go spend some time at a big 5 plant. Talk with all the people you want to. Then go to the new Hyundi plant in Alabama (my dad went there as he is an engineer at a supplier) or the plant I worked at while in school (which has since gone union and EVERYONE's wages dropped down to the entry level wage, yup unions are good for the workers). Noone has dilly-dally time and when the line does stop, everyone picks up a broom and starts sweeping, none of this "ain't my job, call the floor sweeper guy" crap
[/rant]
sorry its late and i need to get some sleep so that I'm not late to work and get fired.
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From: Antioch, CA
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Guys, of course those IN a union tend to LIKE a union. They help you out. Why wouldn't you like them?
To be objective though? I went to college for 6 years, and have an Economics degree and an MBA. And I make less than the guys sweeping the floor at UAW plants. I make less than the guys cleaning the toilets. I also pay way more for my healthcare, and have to work until I'm at least 65 (probably 70 at the rate Social Security is going) to get my check I'll need to live...not some "30 and out" bullsh!t. Granted, I'm only 25, but still...the guy cleaning the toilet at the bank probably makes $8/hr, not $26!
With that said, no wonder those in a union like it, and those outside are saying "what the f***!!!!!"
To be objective though? I went to college for 6 years, and have an Economics degree and an MBA. And I make less than the guys sweeping the floor at UAW plants. I make less than the guys cleaning the toilets. I also pay way more for my healthcare, and have to work until I'm at least 65 (probably 70 at the rate Social Security is going) to get my check I'll need to live...not some "30 and out" bullsh!t. Granted, I'm only 25, but still...the guy cleaning the toilet at the bank probably makes $8/hr, not $26!
With that said, no wonder those in a union like it, and those outside are saying "what the f***!!!!!"
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From: O-Town
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Ok, I can see the Job Bank thing as a good thing, bcuz no one can forsee the good times and the bad times for a vehical on the line....BUT, why get paid 60k dollars that requires on the job training and no form of higher education? I currently work at a job that requires no formal education and only on the job training. Does that entitle me to more then the ~21k I would make if I were full time? My buddy is an electrician and doesn't even make the kind of money that a UAW worker makes and his job requires a lot more formal education, that the Union gives at no cost to him. Why does someone get paid overtime for more then 8hrs a day, time and a half on saturdays, and double time on Sundays (per someone at a local UAW plant)? When did saturdays and sundays become special?
These are the kind of things that don't make sense to all the non-union people. What makes the UAW so special to get the privlages when others have gone to school to learn their craft and don't even make anything close to what a UAW worker does.
Lastly, it's was like my dad said the other day, "health coverage doesn't pay the bills". The new job he is looking at wants to pay him a little while paying a big chunk of his healthcare cost. Thats great...if your visiting the doctor a lot. The UAW is wanting their cake and eat it too with wage increases and healthcare coverage, but why? Just bcuz they can or they will go on strike if they don't get it? Talk about pitching a fit when you don't get your way. When I did that as a kid...well, I guess you get the idea of what my parents did.
These are the kind of things that don't make sense to all the non-union people. What makes the UAW so special to get the privlages when others have gone to school to learn their craft and don't even make anything close to what a UAW worker does.
Lastly, it's was like my dad said the other day, "health coverage doesn't pay the bills". The new job he is looking at wants to pay him a little while paying a big chunk of his healthcare cost. Thats great...if your visiting the doctor a lot. The UAW is wanting their cake and eat it too with wage increases and healthcare coverage, but why? Just bcuz they can or they will go on strike if they don't get it? Talk about pitching a fit when you don't get your way. When I did that as a kid...well, I guess you get the idea of what my parents did.
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Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by HuJass
Why you don't hear too much from the pro-union crowd here is because we're a very small minority. We're tired of trying to make anti-union people see the benefits of a union. Because they're on the outside, they will never understand.
It's very obvious that most on this board are conservative, pro-big business, republicans. They really don't care about workers' rights, living wages, and the middle class. The ironic part is most on this board will never attain the success that they believe they can with our system because the REAL big business people will make sure you never succeed. It's in their best interest to keep the majority down and them on top. And yet you people keep supporting big business. You don't get it. Big business will crush you like a bug if it wants.
So the unions get just a LITTLE bit more of level playing field. Just a very little bit. And we're considered communists or socialists because we believe that with all the money a company makes, they can compensate it's workers a little better. You calling me a communist/socialist is infuriating and offensive! I'm no more one of those than any of you!
I'm definately for workers rights and regulation of big business. One just has to look around to see corporate scandal after corporate scandal, corruption and ineptness in the government, etc. And yet you still believe that business should be able to operate unchecked (currently, big business is the government and vice versa).
Bottom line is, people believe that a union workers' compensation is not fair. Why? Because of level of education? Hey, some people are just not cut out for college for a number of reasons. What if they're flat out dumb and school just didn't click for them? Should these people be forced into poverty because they didn't attend college. Or maybe because you believe they didn't earn it? And why are you dwelling on it so much?
I'm rambling because I'm tired and totally p***ed off at union-bashers.
We've made good point after good point in other posts and they fall on deaf ears. I guess if you haven't gotten it by now, you never will.
And I agree with the poster above who asked that shouldn't this topic be in the lounge.
It's very obvious that most on this board are conservative, pro-big business, republicans. They really don't care about workers' rights, living wages, and the middle class. The ironic part is most on this board will never attain the success that they believe they can with our system because the REAL big business people will make sure you never succeed. It's in their best interest to keep the majority down and them on top. And yet you people keep supporting big business. You don't get it. Big business will crush you like a bug if it wants.
So the unions get just a LITTLE bit more of level playing field. Just a very little bit. And we're considered communists or socialists because we believe that with all the money a company makes, they can compensate it's workers a little better. You calling me a communist/socialist is infuriating and offensive! I'm no more one of those than any of you!
I'm definately for workers rights and regulation of big business. One just has to look around to see corporate scandal after corporate scandal, corruption and ineptness in the government, etc. And yet you still believe that business should be able to operate unchecked (currently, big business is the government and vice versa).
Bottom line is, people believe that a union workers' compensation is not fair. Why? Because of level of education? Hey, some people are just not cut out for college for a number of reasons. What if they're flat out dumb and school just didn't click for them? Should these people be forced into poverty because they didn't attend college. Or maybe because you believe they didn't earn it? And why are you dwelling on it so much?
I'm rambling because I'm tired and totally p***ed off at union-bashers.
We've made good point after good point in other posts and they fall on deaf ears. I guess if you haven't gotten it by now, you never will.
And I agree with the poster above who asked that shouldn't this topic be in the lounge.
If you owned a small company and all of a sudden started doing 5 million a year in sales, would you jack up the office managers salary to $120,000/yr? Or make all of the employess earn higher then standard rates? Fair compensation is one thing, over compensation is another. Thats the power that a union gives to the worker who does not deserve it!
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From: Nashville, TN
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Guys, of course those IN a union tend to LIKE a union. They help you out. Why wouldn't you like them?
Asking union members their opinion of unions is like asking the family of a murder victim to decide the sentence for the murderer. There's a reason we have impartial judges in courts. And there's a reason a non-union outsider can see unions for what they really are better than a union-member.
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Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by 90rocz
Jason, you're right, you're 25 and the baby boomer making $25/hr sweeping floors is like 55...and don't be jealous, those jobs are disappearing like Free Beer!..
I think we, as a nation, are placing way too much emphasis on education = $$$. There are many jobs out there that don't require much education, but pay way more than an entry level job like yours. Just see what you make with your Masters' with about 5-6 years experience in your field...You'll forget all about those sub-$25/hr days.
My wife has it worse than you, for one she's well, a woman, and she has a Master's in Buisness/Global Mgmt, minor in Accounting etc...and can't find a job making more than $17/hr.
Why??
B/c the Outsourcing and Downsizing has washed many a seasoned veteran in Educated fields, back into those once, intermediate level jobs.
The solution is not as simple as some like to think.
I think we, as a nation, are placing way too much emphasis on education = $$$. There are many jobs out there that don't require much education, but pay way more than an entry level job like yours. Just see what you make with your Masters' with about 5-6 years experience in your field...You'll forget all about those sub-$25/hr days.
My wife has it worse than you, for one she's well, a woman, and she has a Master's in Buisness/Global Mgmt, minor in Accounting etc...and can't find a job making more than $17/hr.
Why??
B/c the Outsourcing and Downsizing has washed many a seasoned veteran in Educated fields, back into those once, intermediate level jobs.
The solution is not as simple as some like to think.
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Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
The way a union works and the way it treats its members is very similar to communism. 40% of union members vote Republican by the way, but 100% of union dues go to Democrat candidates. Yeah, that's real democratic.
Within a union there is zero competition, zero market incentives. No incentives for working harder than the next guy, because its all based on seniority, not how good of a job you do. Collective bargaining? Collective anything hints of socialism to me.
Somebody explain to me how Unions are anything but insulation against the free market.
Forget it...nothing about a union has ever appealed to me. Let me go out there in the marketplace and compete on my own. If I work hard enough I can do better than 90% of the people out there...aka I don't need a union to protect me from "the man".
If I think I don't make enough money at a job, guess what...I LOOK FOR A BETTER JOB. If I'm good enough then I'll be successful. That's how the job market is supposed to work, but the article clearly demonstrates how the UAW not only totally FUBAR's the wage scales and throws labor markets out of whack but it seriously screws with a corporation's ability to be competitive globally.
Did you guys not read the end of the article where Sen. Clinton wants tariffs on import cars? Do you realize that would only make things worse? Of course not.
You have a corporation that at one time was the heart and sole of America, that is teetering on bankruptcy, and the union boys are DEFENDING their outrageously good compensation packages. Its never enough is it?
Within a union there is zero competition, zero market incentives. No incentives for working harder than the next guy, because its all based on seniority, not how good of a job you do. Collective bargaining? Collective anything hints of socialism to me.
Somebody explain to me how Unions are anything but insulation against the free market.
Forget it...nothing about a union has ever appealed to me. Let me go out there in the marketplace and compete on my own. If I work hard enough I can do better than 90% of the people out there...aka I don't need a union to protect me from "the man".
If I think I don't make enough money at a job, guess what...I LOOK FOR A BETTER JOB. If I'm good enough then I'll be successful. That's how the job market is supposed to work, but the article clearly demonstrates how the UAW not only totally FUBAR's the wage scales and throws labor markets out of whack but it seriously screws with a corporation's ability to be competitive globally.
Did you guys not read the end of the article where Sen. Clinton wants tariffs on import cars? Do you realize that would only make things worse? Of course not.
You have a corporation that at one time was the heart and sole of America, that is teetering on bankruptcy, and the union boys are DEFENDING their outrageously good compensation packages. Its never enough is it?
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Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by falchulk
Age has nothing to do with it. Everywhere else in the country a job has limits on what the worker makes. Once you reach that limit you are promoted or you stay at that rate. If there is a 55 year old man still sweeping floors then he obviously did not work hard enough to move up. Why reward lazy with a raise each year? Because if you dont the rest of your workforce will strike? Yeah, thats fair.
The economic output value of the work being done is what determines the wage. No way in hell mowing the grass and cleaning toilets is worth $65/hr total compensation. Its unskilled, and a high school student would do it for 1/10th of that. Its an artificial wage not tied to what the market will bear.
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From: Nashville, TN
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by guesswhoo
FWIW.... Again... FWIW.... Unions do not have anything to do with our crumbling economy.
Just the fact the Fed keeps jacking up interest rates should demonstrate the economy is in high-gear. They do that to restrict the money supply and cool the economy off a bit so we don't have a replay of the late 90's tech bubble collapse.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of knowledge among the public of how the economy actually works.
And since when is this lounge material? This thread is discussing the health of the domestic automotive industry as affected by the current labor situation. Its entirely appropriate for this forum IMO.
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From: Ontario, Canada
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
The way I see it, you have greed at every level. There are greedy big business executives giving themselves enormous salaries, pensions, and severance package, even when the company they work for is tanking. You have greedy employees who think that because they clean the toilet for a big company, they should live like Bill Gates; and they are short-sighted enough to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs because they want more. And you have greedy union bosses, with their own huge pay cheques and perks, who put their own needs far above the needs of either the union members or the companies they work for.
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Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Did you guys not read the end of the article where Sen. Clinton wants tariffs on import cars? Do you realize that would only make things worse?
Beings your ALWAYS right, I would LOVE to know why this is a bad idea. I would not for one second, Want to think I know anything.
How could it make matters worse then it already is.
And why on earth, (Beings you LOVE unions SO MUCH) You keep posting about them?
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From: Bakersfield
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Chris, I agree with almost everything you say. I do think that we should tax imports as much as other countries tax our exports though. How can they complain if it is an equal amount? I don't like having in unequal balance of trade in favor of countries like China.
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From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Exactly, What 90Rocz fails to understand is that the way jobs work in America is we don't pay you based on your worth as a human being, we pay (or we're supposed to, in non-union fairytale land) what the JOB is worth.
And you know JACK, about a UAW Facility, how hard the labor is, even sweeping floors...so why don't you show off your "learned" Economic b/s somewhere else.
Last edited by 90rocz; Dec 1, 2005 at 12:04 AM.
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Re: Excellent commentary on how UAW's anti-market nature is killing the Big 3 (big 5)
Originally Posted by 90rocz
For the record...I have NEVER, nor well I ever be or admit to being Communist....Grow up Chris.
And you know JACK, about a UAW Facility, how hard the labor is, even sweeping floors...so why don't you show off your "learned" Economic b/s somewhere else.
And you know JACK, about a UAW Facility, how hard the labor is, even sweeping floors...so why don't you show off your "learned" Economic b/s somewhere else.
Give me a break. Sweeping floors is hard? You can take a mentally deficient person and train them to do that with ease.