Even Toyota builds bad cars nobody wants.
12-24-2008, 10:16 PM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 126
Has there been a study that compares domestics to imports, but remove any badges that identify the make of the car? It would be interesting to see how people rate cars like the Malibu without knowing it was a GM vehicle. If the results are positive then that could make for a good ad.
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B
12-25-2008, 12:49 PM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,023
Those who think GM's problems are perception only and a result of "bad press" are the same people that continue to run GM into the ground. Where was the new Malibu 3 years ago? Where was the Camaro when the Mustang was slaughtering the RWD pony car market? Where were its crossovers when Audi, Toyota, Honda were murdering mid-sized AWD vehicle sales?
While every other manufacturer is having a "bad year" because of a slowing economy, GM is up against end-times, Chrysler is already in negotiations with the afterlife, and Ford is balancing on a cliff.
While every other manufacturer is having a "bad year" because of a slowing economy, GM is up against end-times, Chrysler is already in negotiations with the afterlife, and Ford is balancing on a cliff.
12-25-2008, 03:44 PM
#34
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
not in this day of interwebz..
I dont know if anyone caught this. It was on TV on CNN I think (been flipping through the channels about this) Very spot on guy on his talking about the problems with the big 3 the auto industry and our goverments reaction.
he also mentioned that he had a test that two cars went down a line (not sure if it was an actual test) But one was a GM one was a Toyota. same process of building it. same paint same materials same everything. Then when it came time for the public to give it a rating they chose the asain car over the american car. Even thought they knew it was from the same line. They said it was built better and had better quality.
I dont know if anyone caught this. It was on TV on CNN I think (been flipping through the channels about this) Very spot on guy on his talking about the problems with the big 3 the auto industry and our goverments reaction.
he also mentioned that he had a test that two cars went down a line (not sure if it was an actual test) But one was a GM one was a Toyota. same process of building it. same paint same materials same everything. Then when it came time for the public to give it a rating they chose the asain car over the american car. Even thought they knew it was from the same line. They said it was built better and had better quality.
Poll was done (GM I believe) back in the 80s between the Chevy Nova and Toyota Corolla. Both came off the same assembly line, both were the same car (Novas came more stripped, though). Toyota won in surveys.
Ironically, not too long ago the same factory (out here at Fremount in the Bay Area) makes the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe. Of all GM North American plants, that plant had the worse quality of all GM plants. Never heard an issue brought up about the Matrix (though now made in Canada).
Keep in mind the reputation American automakers has been built up since the 1970s. To see the callousness of how automakers have viewed the American public, simply recall the Cadillac V8/6/4, GM's diesels of the 80s, Ford's V6 head gaskets of the 90s, the interior of the 2nd gen Neons, the 4th gen Camaro's power window motors and short life factory clutch, or the great effort in quality materials (sarcasm) put into the current Sebring.
Hell, the power window issue alone (replaced 1 motor in the '93, 3 in the '97.. one twice... and 2 in my 2002...when GM was supposed to be taking qiuality seriously) is enough for me to call GM cars crap.
The only reason I don't is because I fall into the .0001% of the total US population that actually can separate individual issues regarding vehicles as opposed to it becoming a blanket condemnation of an entire company.
I don't feel sorry for any car maker that fairs poorly in quality opinions against Toyota. I don't hold against Toyota they are getting a free ride on surveys. These opinions take a long time to form, and GM (for example) had just as much time to change that opinion as Toyota has had to increase opinions of their models.
The only thing that will change this is a serious comittment by the big 3 to make good looking, quality cars with quality materials.
Ford has focused on quality for most of the decade, and now they rank above Toyota in surveys.
GM KNOWS how to make quality cars.
Buick has been near or at the top of the charts for a decade. Remember the Aurora? It beat the imports. Berreta & Corsica? They beat imports at the time. Corvettes never had the power window or clutch issues LS1 F-bodies had. Cobalt could have had Honda-like interiors. Chrysler could have made all succeding new cars have the solid interior of the 300... even progressively improve them. They didn't.
GM seems to have finally become focused the past couple of years to make the best looking cars inside and out be competitive with what the imports have out at the same time instead of being as good as what imports had out a few years ago.
If Ford can top Toyota, and if Buick can still rate up there with imports (though it still needs some cars for people with a pulse instead of a pacemaker), then I have no sympathy for how the public perceives US models.
It takes time for perceptions to catch up with reality. There's been lots of opportunity. Now as Ford has shown, sustained effort reaps better benefits over whining.
12-25-2008, 04:07 PM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Annapolis Md. USA
Posts: 754
True story.
Poll was done (GM I believe) back in the 80s between the Chevy Nova and Toyota Corolla. Both came off the same assembly line, both were the same car (Novas came more stripped, though). Toyota won in surveys.
Ironically, not too long ago the same factory (out here at Fremount in the Bay Area) makes the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe. Of all GM North American plants, that plant had the worse quality of all GM plants. Never heard an issue brought up about the Matrix (though now made in Canada).
Keep in mind the reputation American automakers has been built up since the 1970s. To see the callousness of how automakers have viewed the American public, simply recall the Cadillac V8/6/4, GM's diesels of the 80s, Ford's V6 head gaskets of the 90s, the interior of the 2nd gen Neons, the 4th gen Camaro's power window motors and short life factory clutch, or the great effort in quality materials (sarcasm) put into the current Sebring.
Hell, the power window issue alone (replaced 1 motor in the '93, 3 in the '97.. one twice... and 2 in my 2002...when GM was supposed to be taking qiuality seriously) is enough for me to call GM cars crap.
The only reason I don't is because I fall into the .0001% of the total US population that actually can separate individual issues regarding vehicles as opposed to it becoming a blanket condemnation of an entire company.
I don't feel sorry for any car maker that fairs poorly in quality opinions against Toyota. I don't hold against Toyota they are getting a free ride on surveys. These opinions take a long time to form, and GM (for example) had just as much time to change that opinion as Toyota has had to increase opinions of their models.
The only thing that will change this is a serious comittment by the big 3 to make good looking, quality cars with quality materials.
Ford has focused on quality for most of the decade, and now they rank above Toyota in surveys.
GM KNOWS how to make quality cars.
Buick has been near or at the top of the charts for a decade. Remember the Aurora? It beat the imports. Berreta & Corsica? They beat imports at the time. Corvettes never had the power window or clutch issues LS1 F-bodies had. Cobalt could have had Honda-like interiors. Chrysler could have made all succeding new cars have the solid interior of the 300... even progressively improve them. They didn't.
GM seems to have finally become focused the past couple of years to make the best looking cars inside and out be competitive with what the imports have out at the same time instead of being as good as what imports had out a few years ago.
If Ford can top Toyota, and if Buick can still rate up there with imports (though it still needs some cars for people with a pulse instead of a pacemaker), then I have no sympathy for how the public perceives US models.
It takes time for perceptions to catch up with reality. There's been lots of opportunity. Now as Ford has shown, sustained effort reaps better benefits over whining.
Poll was done (GM I believe) back in the 80s between the Chevy Nova and Toyota Corolla. Both came off the same assembly line, both were the same car (Novas came more stripped, though). Toyota won in surveys.
Ironically, not too long ago the same factory (out here at Fremount in the Bay Area) makes the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe. Of all GM North American plants, that plant had the worse quality of all GM plants. Never heard an issue brought up about the Matrix (though now made in Canada).
Keep in mind the reputation American automakers has been built up since the 1970s. To see the callousness of how automakers have viewed the American public, simply recall the Cadillac V8/6/4, GM's diesels of the 80s, Ford's V6 head gaskets of the 90s, the interior of the 2nd gen Neons, the 4th gen Camaro's power window motors and short life factory clutch, or the great effort in quality materials (sarcasm) put into the current Sebring.
Hell, the power window issue alone (replaced 1 motor in the '93, 3 in the '97.. one twice... and 2 in my 2002...when GM was supposed to be taking qiuality seriously) is enough for me to call GM cars crap.
The only reason I don't is because I fall into the .0001% of the total US population that actually can separate individual issues regarding vehicles as opposed to it becoming a blanket condemnation of an entire company.
I don't feel sorry for any car maker that fairs poorly in quality opinions against Toyota. I don't hold against Toyota they are getting a free ride on surveys. These opinions take a long time to form, and GM (for example) had just as much time to change that opinion as Toyota has had to increase opinions of their models.
The only thing that will change this is a serious comittment by the big 3 to make good looking, quality cars with quality materials.
Ford has focused on quality for most of the decade, and now they rank above Toyota in surveys.
GM KNOWS how to make quality cars.
Buick has been near or at the top of the charts for a decade. Remember the Aurora? It beat the imports. Berreta & Corsica? They beat imports at the time. Corvettes never had the power window or clutch issues LS1 F-bodies had. Cobalt could have had Honda-like interiors. Chrysler could have made all succeding new cars have the solid interior of the 300... even progressively improve them. They didn't.
GM seems to have finally become focused the past couple of years to make the best looking cars inside and out be competitive with what the imports have out at the same time instead of being as good as what imports had out a few years ago.
If Ford can top Toyota, and if Buick can still rate up there with imports (though it still needs some cars for people with a pulse instead of a pacemaker), then I have no sympathy for how the public perceives US models.
It takes time for perceptions to catch up with reality. There's been lots of opportunity. Now as Ford has shown, sustained effort reaps better benefits over whining.
Where do you spend 99.9% of the time with your car? Inside. Yet that is where the bean counters picked apart the interiors to the point it was pathetic. It does not matter if a GM drivetrain could go 150k, because their interiors would make the car feel like a bucket of crap. I personally think this huge mistake is one big reason of the poor perception issue they are having now.
Of course they are spending more money on interiors now, so lets hope this will help on the perception.
12-25-2008, 09:59 PM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Good points! One quick observation you touched on briefly...interiors..GM and chrysler has had some of the worst interiors out there for while there. Even if the reliability started to match the foreign cars, the perceived quality was far less on the GM cars because of their interior materials flat out were garbage.
Where do you spend 99.9% of the time with your car? Inside. Yet that is where the bean counters picked apart the interiors to the point it was pathetic. It does not matter if a GM drivetrain could go 150k, because their interiors would make the car feel like a bucket of crap. I personally think this huge mistake is one big reason of the poor perception issue they are having now.
Of course they are spending more money on interiors now, so lets hope this will help on the perception.
Where do you spend 99.9% of the time with your car? Inside. Yet that is where the bean counters picked apart the interiors to the point it was pathetic. It does not matter if a GM drivetrain could go 150k, because their interiors would make the car feel like a bucket of crap. I personally think this huge mistake is one big reason of the poor perception issue they are having now.
Of course they are spending more money on interiors now, so lets hope this will help on the perception.
GM are paying the price now for falling behind the pack when it needed to stay ahead... but they were too complacent to find areas in need of serious improvement.
Last edited by SSbaby; 12-25-2008 at 10:05 PM.
12-30-2008, 06:24 PM
#37
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 538
http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/pdf/AT...enbk_92606.pdf
If the domestics got to reap the benefits of that, they would all be in a good position.
With the USD dropping like a rock and the Yen growing stronger recently, Toyota and Honda are going to hurt big time. It's been forecast that Toyota will lose around $1B for the year. They profited nearly $6B in the 1H 2008, this means they will have bled a negative $7B the last 6 months of 2008.
Without the baked in margin in their business model to take advantage of, exposure of Toyota and the other imports will become apparent very quick and maybe bring some reality that Detroit isn't as messed up as many would portray or want it to be.
12-31-2008, 10:57 AM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 161
Oh my goodness. Blasphemy. (j/k
) There are people on this site, as well as other GM fan sites, that constantly spit out this statement: "Is there anyone here that can say the Chevy _____ was better than the Toyota _____ or Honda _____?" 
12-31-2008, 11:07 AM
#39
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 161
12-31-2008, 12:10 PM
#40
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 1,581
Exactly. It's simply one of their biggest problems IMHO! With no end in site.
12-31-2008, 01:51 PM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 203
The only thing that will change this is a serious comittment by the big 3 to make good looking, quality cars with quality materials.
Ford has focused on quality for most of the decade, and now they rank above Toyota in surveys.
GM KNOWS how to make quality cars.
Buick has been near or at the top of the charts for a decade. Remember the Aurora? It beat the imports. Berreta & Corsica? They beat imports at the time. Corvettes never had the power window or clutch issues LS1 F-bodies had. Cobalt could have had Honda-like interiors. Chrysler could have made all succeding new cars have the solid interior of the 300... even progressively improve them. They didn't.
GM, Ford, and Chrysler are going to have to build vehicles that are as good or better in quality than Toyota, Honda and the rest for a quite a long time I think before general public opinion is going to change.
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