E55 vs M5 vs HSV
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Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
E55 vs M5 vs HSV
Im not getting into any debate about the GTO name... this article is a test done a little while ago about the HSV which is the same chassis the pontiac will be based on. this one being the 4 door.
article
article
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
im glad you liked it ... How about this one.
Monaro CV8(302hp) Vs Mustang Cobra(325hp)
The Monaro has no natural predators. What other vehicle boasts such a combination of power, style, equipment and - dare we say- prestige, with such an affordable entry fee? Okay, with a sticker nudging 60 large ($Aus dollars), the Manaro is no drive away Korean econobox, but the term "value for money" sits very well on it's CV8's broad flanks. Don't believe us?
Busy lamenting the absence of the Falcon (Ford) coupe, we realised that the Blue Oval still offers a V8 rear - drive two door. Largley overlooked by the buying public, the Tickford-tinkered Mustang Cobra coupe is still available for (the fairly steep) ask of AUS $85,000.
Unless you've been in a coma for the past few months, you'll know all about the CV8's Chevy Gen lll. It's the same as the SS, but with a deeper note thanks to a different intake and exhaust.
Let's revisit the Mustang Cobra's 4.6 DOHC V8 briefly. With 240kw (325hp) it shades the Gen lll by 20hp, but produces it's peak 800rpm further up the rpm scale at 6,000 rpm. The "Stang" also revs clean and hard all the way to 6 thou and beyond, where the Manaro gets a bit short of breath. The Chevy gets even with 460nm (340lbft) at 4,400 rpm, with the Mustang laying down 430nm (320lbft) at 4,750 rpm. Of course, the on-paper numbers can be deceptive, as the Mustang's definitely got more squirt down low then the rev- hungry Gen lll. The Cobra motor produces one of the richest engine notes Barry White like. The Gen lll always sounds a bit anaemic for such a big cube V8. Whats more the 4.6 litre Cobra engine is marginally more economical. On the highway cycle it was line ball, with the long legged Monaro edging ahead, but drop the hammer and the Chevy starts to drink like a hardened bar fly. Overall, though the numbers are close.
Both engines are backed up by Tremec transmissions - five speed in the Mustang and six in the CV8. The first few times you use them, you'd swear the Mustangs gearbox, clutch and throttle had never met - it's like an uncomfortable beginning of a blind date. Like a good date though, things start to loosen up and you get to know the drivtrain. Gearing is long, but not moonshot long a la CV8. There are lots of clunks from the drivetrain, too, particularly on trailing throttle. The six speeder in the Manaro is also none too slick, but the action feels a bit more positive then the Mustang. It still requires a hefty shove and a patient hand, as the T56 won't be hurried.
In hot conditions, neither car approaches it's fastest performance times, with both coups dropping the ball by about three tenths over previous tests.
We tried to launch both cars with traction control on and off, with widely varying results. With the electronic aids switched off, launching the Musatng Cobra was knife- edged task of balancing revs against time consuming wheel spin. Once hooked up , the snap into second was greeted with more protests from the rear BF Goodrich tires and a little flick to one side as the Stang struggled to transmit it's considerable stonk into sting. Changing into third proved even more time - consuming thanks to the cumbersome heave required to engage the cog.
Even with traction control engaged, it was still possible to blow off the back tires. Ultimatley, though our best traction - controlled runs were just a touch quicker then without.
Traction control cut the fun in the Monaro very early, and the car just sat on the line as the electronics tried their best to save us from ourselves. Like the Mustang, launching the CV8 required some finesse with the console mounted button disengaged, but ultimately it proved easier to launch thanks to a grippier rear end and less overall squirt. With just on 3,000rpm dialed up, a modicum of clutch slip saw the big coupe away fairly cleanly. The 235/40R18 Bridgestones argued briefly with the tarmac before the **** squatted itself into the surface and the Monaro tried to punch a hole in the horizon. On the change into second , the rear rubber yelped again, but not to the same degree as the lurid scream from the Mustang. Like the 'Stang, the up shift into third is fairly slow and deliberate, wasting precious tenths. From here it's throttle down all the way to the finish line, pausing only briefly for one more shift till the 1/4 mile mark.
So the Mustang is the quicker of the two - in a straight line, at least. The combo of more power and one less gear change help the Mustang to take the gold . Straight line testing out of the way, lets find some corners.
The Monaro handles with a squatted ****- stance. On dry tarmac it's very difficult to get it to break traction. In fact, it takes gross provocation ( a mini Scandivican flick will do nicely) to get the rump to shake. During regular, hard driving, the most you'll get is a smear of oversteer. Plant the foot in the 'Stang, however and it serves up great dollops of tire - frying slides.
With so much more rear grip you would expect the CV8 to be a determined understeerer, but it ain't. Once cornering loads start to build, the nose will begin to push, push but the Holden remains extremely adjustable. Wind on more lock, and play around with the thorttle or add a bit of trail braking and the nose comes back into line.
The helm of the Mustang is sharp but the steering is not very linear. You've got to keep nibbling at the wheel to keep sailing the same course. While oversteer is on tap like your favoured amber liquid, the Cobra never feels totally happy to be hung out there. You always have an underlying fear the Stang could bite you in the **** - it is a Cobra after all. Perhaps this phobia stems from an incident in drizzling rain. Exiting a slow switchback corner with traction control on, the Mustang decided it wanted to have a look at the passing scrub. A quick flick of the wrists and things were gathered up with less drama then Days of our lives. But still, it's a sphincter-clenching reminder of the Fords poor chassis tune.
Okay, the Mustang Cobra handles like an American car bit it doesn't stop like one. Because , it can actually stop! Up front, 329mm ventilated Brembo rotors are bitten by twin-piston PBR calipers, while the rear end runs 296mm ventilated discs and single pot clamps. Like everything else in the Mustang, the brakes take a firm shake to do their thing, but the anchors are great, offering more bite then a peckish whit pointer.
The Monaro's brakes merely do an adequate job of slowing the car, offering little feel into the bargain. Rush into a tightening radius corner carrying too much speed and you soon realises the CV8 really is 1640kg (3,600lb) of a car. This is a shame, because every other part of the Monaro experience is pretty dam good.
Much has already been made of the Monaro's looks, so there is little point offering you another informed diatribe about Holdens design guru Mike Simcoe drawing CV8's on his lounge room wall. All you need to know is the Momaro is a ferkin' good looker and everyone will want to be your mate. Even a few months after it's launch, when you would expect some of the hoopla to have died down, this thing still empties gas stations and pubs like you wouldn't believe.
The Mustang on the other hand, is a bit anonymous, and even finished in menacing black like our example. While the Monaro's shape is purer then white Snow Whites underwear, the Mustangs is an uncomfortable mix of lines and angles. And what the bloody hell is it with those wheel arches? You could comfortably up size the 17 inch rims for big shiny 21 inch chrome rims, if that was your thing. We sure as well hope it isn't.
Styling aside, built quality is not the Mustang's strong suite, either. Panel gaps are wide enough to park a small well built European car in. And the paint has more orange peel then a greengrocer. It's enough to make an Audi QC man cry.
Things don't get any better when you jump into the Mustang. Actually, they get a sight dam worse. There is no eloquent way to described the interior of the Mustang Cobra; it's a complete shocker. Flicking through my notes l found a perfect summary; "Driving position is a joke. Steering wheel is barely adjustable. Interior is a hodge-podge of plastics. Build stuck in the 80's. Sounded like something was loose in the dash. Top of the seats not wide enough, for even my bony shoulders. Just an horrible. place to be. To give more of an idea about the build quality, think early '90's Hyundai crossed with a mid 80's Fiat. Not a pretty picture.
The Monaro couldn't be more different. Full leather trim, power everything,10 stack CD combined with decent styling. Okay it's still a Holden. so it doesn't have that tight BMW feel about it, but it's about one thousand times better then the American competitor.
Once inside, the CV8 seems to shrink around you. Even when pushing on the Monaro feels smaller then it is. Having said that, the CV8 offers usable rear seat space for two sub-six footers, while the Mustang is for young kids only. At the end of the day, the Mustang is an 80's muscle car being passed off as something new. It's a mullet, bad teeth and teased hair, much like a Billy Ray Cyrus - Dolly Parton convention.
It's difficult to see whom the car would appeal to, unless your name is Cletus or Big shirtless Ron. Okay, the Stang is a ball to hang sideways and the brakes feel great, but it's the kind of car you'd have to transport to your fave stretch of road because you couldn't live with it.
The Monaro, however, is very livable. It is a 21st Century muscle car and appeals to everyone and his dog. So it's a first up comparo win for the Monaro.
Monaro CV8(302hp) Vs Mustang Cobra(325hp)
The Monaro has no natural predators. What other vehicle boasts such a combination of power, style, equipment and - dare we say- prestige, with such an affordable entry fee? Okay, with a sticker nudging 60 large ($Aus dollars), the Manaro is no drive away Korean econobox, but the term "value for money" sits very well on it's CV8's broad flanks. Don't believe us?
Busy lamenting the absence of the Falcon (Ford) coupe, we realised that the Blue Oval still offers a V8 rear - drive two door. Largley overlooked by the buying public, the Tickford-tinkered Mustang Cobra coupe is still available for (the fairly steep) ask of AUS $85,000.
Unless you've been in a coma for the past few months, you'll know all about the CV8's Chevy Gen lll. It's the same as the SS, but with a deeper note thanks to a different intake and exhaust.
Let's revisit the Mustang Cobra's 4.6 DOHC V8 briefly. With 240kw (325hp) it shades the Gen lll by 20hp, but produces it's peak 800rpm further up the rpm scale at 6,000 rpm. The "Stang" also revs clean and hard all the way to 6 thou and beyond, where the Manaro gets a bit short of breath. The Chevy gets even with 460nm (340lbft) at 4,400 rpm, with the Mustang laying down 430nm (320lbft) at 4,750 rpm. Of course, the on-paper numbers can be deceptive, as the Mustang's definitely got more squirt down low then the rev- hungry Gen lll. The Cobra motor produces one of the richest engine notes Barry White like. The Gen lll always sounds a bit anaemic for such a big cube V8. Whats more the 4.6 litre Cobra engine is marginally more economical. On the highway cycle it was line ball, with the long legged Monaro edging ahead, but drop the hammer and the Chevy starts to drink like a hardened bar fly. Overall, though the numbers are close.
Both engines are backed up by Tremec transmissions - five speed in the Mustang and six in the CV8. The first few times you use them, you'd swear the Mustangs gearbox, clutch and throttle had never met - it's like an uncomfortable beginning of a blind date. Like a good date though, things start to loosen up and you get to know the drivtrain. Gearing is long, but not moonshot long a la CV8. There are lots of clunks from the drivetrain, too, particularly on trailing throttle. The six speeder in the Manaro is also none too slick, but the action feels a bit more positive then the Mustang. It still requires a hefty shove and a patient hand, as the T56 won't be hurried.
In hot conditions, neither car approaches it's fastest performance times, with both coups dropping the ball by about three tenths over previous tests.
We tried to launch both cars with traction control on and off, with widely varying results. With the electronic aids switched off, launching the Musatng Cobra was knife- edged task of balancing revs against time consuming wheel spin. Once hooked up , the snap into second was greeted with more protests from the rear BF Goodrich tires and a little flick to one side as the Stang struggled to transmit it's considerable stonk into sting. Changing into third proved even more time - consuming thanks to the cumbersome heave required to engage the cog.
Even with traction control engaged, it was still possible to blow off the back tires. Ultimatley, though our best traction - controlled runs were just a touch quicker then without.
Traction control cut the fun in the Monaro very early, and the car just sat on the line as the electronics tried their best to save us from ourselves. Like the Mustang, launching the CV8 required some finesse with the console mounted button disengaged, but ultimately it proved easier to launch thanks to a grippier rear end and less overall squirt. With just on 3,000rpm dialed up, a modicum of clutch slip saw the big coupe away fairly cleanly. The 235/40R18 Bridgestones argued briefly with the tarmac before the **** squatted itself into the surface and the Monaro tried to punch a hole in the horizon. On the change into second , the rear rubber yelped again, but not to the same degree as the lurid scream from the Mustang. Like the 'Stang, the up shift into third is fairly slow and deliberate, wasting precious tenths. From here it's throttle down all the way to the finish line, pausing only briefly for one more shift till the 1/4 mile mark.
So the Mustang is the quicker of the two - in a straight line, at least. The combo of more power and one less gear change help the Mustang to take the gold . Straight line testing out of the way, lets find some corners.
The Monaro handles with a squatted ****- stance. On dry tarmac it's very difficult to get it to break traction. In fact, it takes gross provocation ( a mini Scandivican flick will do nicely) to get the rump to shake. During regular, hard driving, the most you'll get is a smear of oversteer. Plant the foot in the 'Stang, however and it serves up great dollops of tire - frying slides.
With so much more rear grip you would expect the CV8 to be a determined understeerer, but it ain't. Once cornering loads start to build, the nose will begin to push, push but the Holden remains extremely adjustable. Wind on more lock, and play around with the thorttle or add a bit of trail braking and the nose comes back into line.
The helm of the Mustang is sharp but the steering is not very linear. You've got to keep nibbling at the wheel to keep sailing the same course. While oversteer is on tap like your favoured amber liquid, the Cobra never feels totally happy to be hung out there. You always have an underlying fear the Stang could bite you in the **** - it is a Cobra after all. Perhaps this phobia stems from an incident in drizzling rain. Exiting a slow switchback corner with traction control on, the Mustang decided it wanted to have a look at the passing scrub. A quick flick of the wrists and things were gathered up with less drama then Days of our lives. But still, it's a sphincter-clenching reminder of the Fords poor chassis tune.
Okay, the Mustang Cobra handles like an American car bit it doesn't stop like one. Because , it can actually stop! Up front, 329mm ventilated Brembo rotors are bitten by twin-piston PBR calipers, while the rear end runs 296mm ventilated discs and single pot clamps. Like everything else in the Mustang, the brakes take a firm shake to do their thing, but the anchors are great, offering more bite then a peckish whit pointer.
The Monaro's brakes merely do an adequate job of slowing the car, offering little feel into the bargain. Rush into a tightening radius corner carrying too much speed and you soon realises the CV8 really is 1640kg (3,600lb) of a car. This is a shame, because every other part of the Monaro experience is pretty dam good.
Much has already been made of the Monaro's looks, so there is little point offering you another informed diatribe about Holdens design guru Mike Simcoe drawing CV8's on his lounge room wall. All you need to know is the Momaro is a ferkin' good looker and everyone will want to be your mate. Even a few months after it's launch, when you would expect some of the hoopla to have died down, this thing still empties gas stations and pubs like you wouldn't believe.
The Mustang on the other hand, is a bit anonymous, and even finished in menacing black like our example. While the Monaro's shape is purer then white Snow Whites underwear, the Mustangs is an uncomfortable mix of lines and angles. And what the bloody hell is it with those wheel arches? You could comfortably up size the 17 inch rims for big shiny 21 inch chrome rims, if that was your thing. We sure as well hope it isn't.
Styling aside, built quality is not the Mustang's strong suite, either. Panel gaps are wide enough to park a small well built European car in. And the paint has more orange peel then a greengrocer. It's enough to make an Audi QC man cry.
Things don't get any better when you jump into the Mustang. Actually, they get a sight dam worse. There is no eloquent way to described the interior of the Mustang Cobra; it's a complete shocker. Flicking through my notes l found a perfect summary; "Driving position is a joke. Steering wheel is barely adjustable. Interior is a hodge-podge of plastics. Build stuck in the 80's. Sounded like something was loose in the dash. Top of the seats not wide enough, for even my bony shoulders. Just an horrible. place to be. To give more of an idea about the build quality, think early '90's Hyundai crossed with a mid 80's Fiat. Not a pretty picture.
The Monaro couldn't be more different. Full leather trim, power everything,10 stack CD combined with decent styling. Okay it's still a Holden. so it doesn't have that tight BMW feel about it, but it's about one thousand times better then the American competitor.
Once inside, the CV8 seems to shrink around you. Even when pushing on the Monaro feels smaller then it is. Having said that, the CV8 offers usable rear seat space for two sub-six footers, while the Mustang is for young kids only. At the end of the day, the Mustang is an 80's muscle car being passed off as something new. It's a mullet, bad teeth and teased hair, much like a Billy Ray Cyrus - Dolly Parton convention.
It's difficult to see whom the car would appeal to, unless your name is Cletus or Big shirtless Ron. Okay, the Stang is a ball to hang sideways and the brakes feel great, but it's the kind of car you'd have to transport to your fave stretch of road because you couldn't live with it.
The Monaro, however, is very livable. It is a 21st Century muscle car and appeals to everyone and his dog. So it's a first up comparo win for the Monaro.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 564
From: Fletcher, NC, US
The only thing I found wrong with that article is the implication that the LS1 is a "Chevy" engine. Otherwise it's a great read.
------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg
------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 599
From: Inland Empire, CA
That's really exciting to read. Seeing the HSV GTO compete with the M5 and Mercedes gives it all the more chance of being the BMW killer that they want for the Pontiac GTO. Considering the car here will be 2 door, but lose a gob of power, it should run similarly, probably a bit slower. I'm impressed with the handling, the more I read about the Monaro/GTO the more I realize it truly is a different car than the F-Body.
On a side note, I've always been told that the foreign car mags have a better writing style, and damned if I didn't hear right.
------------------
Jason
<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>
On a side note, I've always been told that the foreign car mags have a better writing style, and damned if I didn't hear right.
------------------
Jason
<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,440
From: five-one-oh/nine-oh-nine
I've read the C&D article when it was first published. That's why I'm advocating that the "sigma platform" that everyone is so in love with on which the CTS is built is nothing but a modified/retuned catera/Omega undernethe.
Basically the GTO we are getting is perhaps a revision behind the CTS, and a reletively small revision at that. If we are getting a 5th gen camaro, or keeping the GTO after the "stop gap" period it is likely that both will continue to use almost all of the same parts as are in the GTO now.
Basically the GTO we are getting is perhaps a revision behind the CTS, and a reletively small revision at that. If we are getting a 5th gen camaro, or keeping the GTO after the "stop gap" period it is likely that both will continue to use almost all of the same parts as are in the GTO now.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,440
From: five-one-oh/nine-oh-nine
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kizz:
The only thing I found wrong with that article is the implication that the LS1 is a "Chevy" engine. Otherwise it's a great read.
</font>
The only thing I found wrong with that article is the implication that the LS1 is a "Chevy" engine. Otherwise it's a great read.
</font>
I'd refer to the "northstar" as a "caddy" engine and the "shortstar" as an "olds" engine, even if both were designed by the same people at GM Powertrain. So what?
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