Does the XLR or some other Vette Based Cadillac return with C7?
01-26-2010, 10:07 PM
#62
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I thought these posts were more appropriate in this thread than the XTS thread...
Maybe it's more appropriate to start a new thread in regards to re-invigorating Cadillac but it must be said that Cadillac need exciting product as well as legitimate cars in the luxury class, which the XTS seems to fit nicely even if the powertrain options appear to be a bit scant.
Of the luxury marques, how many have supercars in their product portfolio? BMW, MB, Audi, Jaguar have. Lexus will unleash one soon. Infiniti don't appear to have one and I'm not sure if Volvo is considered a luxury brand... but Cadillac needs product like the Cien concept. This vehicle needs to showcase GM's application of technology.
Today I had a look at an Audi R8. Boy what a machine! I don't normally even think about such extravagant cars but being the car nut that I am, I imagined myself as an owner of such a vehicle... in another favorable lifetime! This vehicle was mid engined, and the engine itself was visible from the outside. A narrow V10 borrowed from the Lamborghini Gallardo, slightly detuned to give the R8 more driveabilty than the Gallardo.
I immediately thought to myself, why can't GM sell such a car?
GM need to capture the essence of what makes these expensive machines so desirable in the eyes of buyers with lots of cash. Remember, wealthy people don't have to think pragmatically. They don't care about the fact that OHV engines have packaging advantages. They don't care about OHV engines, period!
Imagine a Cadillac Cien V10 with 500+ hp. That would get more people taking a more serious look at Cadillac. It would do no harm at all to its image. I firmly believe that Cadillac needs to be a technology brand for GM. Cadillac needs to have exclusive powertrains although the lower spec models can share powertrains with GM's other brands. As excellent as most know GM's smallblock engines to be, they don't seem to suit Cadillac's luxury aspirations and might do its image more harm than good.
It took a car like Audi's R8 - there were many people admiring the car - for me to have a rethink my GM loyalty but I wouldn't need to reconsider my loyalty if GM played in the same ballpark.
Like I said above, if VW can do it with Audi, GM can, too!
Of the luxury marques, how many have supercars in their product portfolio? BMW, MB, Audi, Jaguar have. Lexus will unleash one soon. Infiniti don't appear to have one and I'm not sure if Volvo is considered a luxury brand... but Cadillac needs product like the Cien concept. This vehicle needs to showcase GM's application of technology.
Today I had a look at an Audi R8. Boy what a machine! I don't normally even think about such extravagant cars but being the car nut that I am, I imagined myself as an owner of such a vehicle... in another favorable lifetime! This vehicle was mid engined, and the engine itself was visible from the outside. A narrow V10 borrowed from the Lamborghini Gallardo, slightly detuned to give the R8 more driveabilty than the Gallardo.
I immediately thought to myself, why can't GM sell such a car?
GM need to capture the essence of what makes these expensive machines so desirable in the eyes of buyers with lots of cash. Remember, wealthy people don't have to think pragmatically. They don't care about the fact that OHV engines have packaging advantages. They don't care about OHV engines, period!
Imagine a Cadillac Cien V10 with 500+ hp. That would get more people taking a more serious look at Cadillac. It would do no harm at all to its image. I firmly believe that Cadillac needs to be a technology brand for GM. Cadillac needs to have exclusive powertrains although the lower spec models can share powertrains with GM's other brands. As excellent as most know GM's smallblock engines to be, they don't seem to suit Cadillac's luxury aspirations and might do its image more harm than good.
It took a car like Audi's R8 - there were many people admiring the car - for me to have a rethink my GM loyalty but I wouldn't need to reconsider my loyalty if GM played in the same ballpark.
Like I said above, if VW can do it with Audi, GM can, too!
OK, so I was a bit coy on the BMW and Jaguar supercars but the fact is both marques have had supercars before (M1 and XJ220) and BMW are definitely readying a supercar in the not too distant future. Jaguar may also bring back a XJ220 successor. Both vehicles will be mid-engined if reports are accurate.
See here:
M1: http://www.worldcarfans.com/10810291...coming-in-2012
XJ220: http://www.worldcarfans.com/10901231...00mph-supercar
Not that i regard Jaguar as the equivalent of the German marques in prestige and pedigree but I use it to suit my argument.
If there is an unwritten rule at GM to not have a nameplate outperform the Corvette, then that rule should be broken because GM cannot make a supercar to sell for Corvette money. GM cannot rely on Corvette alone to compete against purpose built, mid-engined exotics.
A car like Cien, if designed right - lightweight, with super acceleration and braking, without being hard to drive fast - would really give GM's designers some inspiration to transform not only the Cadillac brand but the entire company.
See here:
M1: http://www.worldcarfans.com/10810291...coming-in-2012
XJ220: http://www.worldcarfans.com/10901231...00mph-supercar
Not that i regard Jaguar as the equivalent of the German marques in prestige and pedigree but I use it to suit my argument.
If there is an unwritten rule at GM to not have a nameplate outperform the Corvette, then that rule should be broken because GM cannot make a supercar to sell for Corvette money. GM cannot rely on Corvette alone to compete against purpose built, mid-engined exotics.
A car like Cien, if designed right - lightweight, with super acceleration and braking, without being hard to drive fast - would really give GM's designers some inspiration to transform not only the Cadillac brand but the entire company.
01-26-2010, 10:20 PM
#63
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Thats like asking why the M5 can't be BMW's performance car? It really is simple..either you build badass cars are you don't. Apparently however I am way out in left field. I did not know Cadillac's mission was to build the best FWD cars in the world or that Art & Science was the brands down fall.
Audi is similar. Look at the R8 and tell me that car is not designed with absolute intentions in mind, even if its V10 is essentially a detuned version of the Gallardo's V10... in the interests of improved driveability. Now, you'd think that VW would be a bit shy about building a car like the R8 when it already owns the Lamborghini brand, and, therefore, already build supercars.
But this mindset is obviously different to that of GM's. I know which direction is the more appealing.
Messge to GM: Let Corvette be Corvette. If you want to make a supercar, do it under the Cadillac brand, and ask the customer for a 'reasonable' and 'deserving' outlay.
01-26-2010, 10:30 PM
#64
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While you're 100% correct, I don't think that was the point trying to be made. 
Let's not forget that with the dawning of the Art & Science era also began Cadillac's and GM's downfall. Apparently there are a few people left that are at least attributing one to the other. While the Art & Science movement developed some interesting vehicles, it seems that GM is now moving Cadillac in the direction of building vehicles people actually want to buy, like the CTS and future ATS. But how many CTS-Vs are they going to sell, and how profitable will they be? Meanwhile until the announcement of the XTS, they were leaving out the majority of their customers.
CTS is already a winner, so offer a CTS convertible based off the CTS coupe. Also I think a production version of the Converj might actually do better than the Chevy Volt. There's just no need to do another XLR as far as I can see.
Let's not forget that with the dawning of the Art & Science era also began Cadillac's and GM's downfall. Apparently there are a few people left that are at least attributing one to the other. While the Art & Science movement developed some interesting vehicles, it seems that GM is now moving Cadillac in the direction of building vehicles people actually want to buy, like the CTS and future ATS. But how many CTS-Vs are they going to sell, and how profitable will they be? Meanwhile until the announcement of the XTS, they were leaving out the majority of their customers.
CTS is already a winner, so offer a CTS convertible based off the CTS coupe. Also I think a production version of the Converj might actually do better than the Chevy Volt. There's just no need to do another XLR as far as I can see.
You want proof, look no further than Lincoln. It builds traditional American luxury... but even that isn't enough in today's cut-throat market.
01-27-2010, 09:31 AM
#65
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the thing is with now only 4 brands nothing should be left to rot. Caddy should replace the roadster with something...maybe smaller and more in line with what BMW offers..like i said before a Solstice based XLR replacement would fit the bill.
hell throw the ciens's lines on it for looks..
hell throw the ciens's lines on it for looks..
01-27-2010, 10:00 AM
#66
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Oh my, I think using Kappa for the next XLR would be a disaster. First, the plant which made it is sold. Second, how would it look if GM dusted off an old and discontinued Pontiac to give Cadillac (of all things) a halo sports car?
01-27-2010, 10:46 AM
#67
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Yes but you can also argue that if GM didn't transform Cadillac, like they did, there would be no Cadillac today. I don't think GM built cars that people didn't want. i just believe GM built cars that didn't go the complete way to offering vehicles every bit as worthy as its competition.
I'm thinking Cadillac needs to be to Buick, what Maybach is to Mercedes.
01-27-2010, 11:07 AM
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01-27-2010, 11:11 AM
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I think the point trying to be made (at least the way I am reading it, and also the way I feel) is that since the dawning of the Art & Science era at Cadillac, there was apparently a move being made to take Cadillac to the next level, and be predominantly RWD based with CTS, then the original SRX, the XLR, and the latest STS...
Yes, DTS and other FWD cars were made by Cadillac for 40 years and still soldier on, but it appeared that Cadillac was 'growing up' so to speak, and moving int o the big boy's sandbox and this type of stuff was being phased out in favor of exclusive or semi-exclusive RWD based platforms.
Now, it looks like this plan is basically abandonded, as STS is fading away, XLR is fading away, SRX has moved to a FWD platform basically shared with the entire company, and the XTS is another FWD platform.
This leaves Cadillac with just the CTS line with RWD, though the ATS may bolster that.
Cadillac is giving me a real "Jekyl & Hyde" vibe right now...
Yes, DTS and other FWD cars were made by Cadillac for 40 years and still soldier on, but it appeared that Cadillac was 'growing up' so to speak, and moving int o the big boy's sandbox and this type of stuff was being phased out in favor of exclusive or semi-exclusive RWD based platforms.
Now, it looks like this plan is basically abandonded, as STS is fading away, XLR is fading away, SRX has moved to a FWD platform basically shared with the entire company, and the XTS is another FWD platform.
This leaves Cadillac with just the CTS line with RWD, though the ATS may bolster that.
Cadillac is giving me a real "Jekyl & Hyde" vibe right now...
Way back when, Cadillac was the standard of the world in mainstream luxury cars. It died a slow and agonizing death in giving up that title. Now to win it back, it needs to fight, and fight hard. Producing XTS which is a FWD-based automobile is not fighting.
Ever since the A&S theme started dwindling down, Cadillac started giving up on its fight, it barely lasted 1 round.
Last edited by muckz; 01-28-2010 at 09:52 AM.
01-27-2010, 11:26 AM
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The first point is all speculation. I don't know if the XTS will be offered without AWD, but even if it is, what is the problem? Caddy has been making FWD for decades. They wouldn't be the only offering FWD in cars as well. I also don't understand the Alpha vehicle comment. Alpha should be smaller than this, much smaller. My understanding is smaller than the CTS and maybe a longer version the size of a CTS.
I am not sure I understand the second point. I am not sure that the XTS is "good enough", mainly because I have only seen a concept. Caddy is going after the luxury market. The luxury market has large cars. The XTS is a large luxury car. Seems to fit the bill to me. The features and materials are what is going to make or break this car.
01-27-2010, 11:29 AM
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History, yes, history is fine, but it is what it is - history. The world is not static. Marketplace changes all the time. The definition of luxury changed. Cadillac is not in the business of making nice large FWD cars. That's what Buick is for. Even Chevrolet. And Pontiac (used to be). Cadillac was in the business of delivering luxury. Now I'm not sure where it fits.
01-27-2010, 11:37 AM
#72
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I don't think there will be a Cadillac version of the Vette; not in the next few years anyway. GM needs to make winners in the mass-market segments, not flagships.
Mercedes doesn't pay the bills from AMG sales. BMW doesn't stay afloat from it's M-series (Is there even an M edition of the 7 series?). Same for Audi and it's R8.
It'd be awesome if Cadillac had something that offered blow-your-mind performance and features and quality and styling, but will those what, 1,000-2,000 vehicles sold per year really help GM when it's fighting to become profitable and sustainable? They can better use their resources to develop better 'everyman' vehicles, not celebrity/pro-athelete vehicles.
Mercedes doesn't pay the bills from AMG sales. BMW doesn't stay afloat from it's M-series (Is there even an M edition of the 7 series?). Same for Audi and it's R8.
It'd be awesome if Cadillac had something that offered blow-your-mind performance and features and quality and styling, but will those what, 1,000-2,000 vehicles sold per year really help GM when it's fighting to become profitable and sustainable? They can better use their resources to develop better 'everyman' vehicles, not celebrity/pro-athelete vehicles.
01-27-2010, 03:38 PM
#73
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but if it was not..take the kappa..skin it in a new cien styled body. give it the inerior it should have and make it a small fun roadster.
and call it the CXR
01-27-2010, 04:17 PM
#74
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the thing is with now only 4 brands nothing should be left to rot. Caddy should replace the roadster with something...maybe smaller and more in line with what BMW offers..like i said before a Solstice based XLR replacement would fit the bill.
hell throw the ciens's lines on it for looks..
hell throw the ciens's lines on it for looks..
Originally Posted by Koz2
I don't think there will be a Cadillac version of the Vette; not in the next few years anyway. GM needs to make winners in the mass-market segments, not flagships.
Mercedes doesn't pay the bills from AMG sales. BMW doesn't stay afloat from it's M-series (Is there even an M edition of the 7 series?). Same for Audi and it's R8.
It'd be awesome if Cadillac had something that offered blow-your-mind performance and features and quality and styling, but will those what, 1,000-2,000 vehicles sold per year really help GM when it's fighting to become profitable and sustainable? They can better use their resources to develop better 'everyman' vehicles, not celebrity/pro-athelete vehicles.
Mercedes doesn't pay the bills from AMG sales. BMW doesn't stay afloat from it's M-series (Is there even an M edition of the 7 series?). Same for Audi and it's R8.
It'd be awesome if Cadillac had something that offered blow-your-mind performance and features and quality and styling, but will those what, 1,000-2,000 vehicles sold per year really help GM when it's fighting to become profitable and sustainable? They can better use their resources to develop better 'everyman' vehicles, not celebrity/pro-athelete vehicles.
Once the cash does become available, supercars will generate a lot of desirability in a brand. It would show that GM is serious about Cadillac being the standard of the world. Such exotic vehicles are important to the brand image. To downplay it would be to argue the logic in why Audi conceived the R8 when they already have Lamborghini selling flagship supercars. Like I said, it does Audi's brand image no end of harm.
01-27-2010, 11:30 PM
#75
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If that would be a shortcut almost everything Caddy is a shortcut..Escalade, XLR,.
So your telling me they could not do a Kappa II platform and give it just to caddy? Redesigned platform new body and all new iterior is a shorcut?
The only reason I keep saying this is..there are a lot of BMW roadsters up here in New England and I think something like a kappa II based roadster would sell..and be a nitch vehicle caddy could profit from.
