Some comments in other threads have prompted me to make this thread. It seems like there are some misconceptions about the size class that the new G8 is in. It really is a full size, five passenger sedan. I've seen some comments about the G8 relative to some smaller machines, such as the Infiniti G35. While such comparisons are probably inevitable and probably of some value, I just wanted to make sure everyone was clear on the size of the G8. Its most direct competitor in terms of size and overall mission is probably the Dodge Charger, or the LX cars in general. Perhaps also the Maxima and Toyota Avalon (a bit bigger than Camry).

I posted about this in a different thread, but I thought it worthy of its own. Not to pick on Guy (guionM) , but he had made the comment about the G8 looking quite a bit larger than it is due to its long wheelbase. FS3800 posted a nice reply with some numbers, to which I added some of my own.

Discuss. Or, if this is old hat to all of you and I just wasted 5 minutes making a new thread about it, just ignore it and let this thread fade into oblivion.

Thanks for saving me the trouble. I think some of you guys are forgetting that the G8 is a FULL size car, nearly identical in most dimensions to the Chrysler LX cars. It is larger than a CTS and significantly larger than the midsizers (G6, Malibu, etc.). It may be 2" shorter than a GP, but it is 3" wider. The appearance size is partially an illusion of the long wheelbase, but it is also simply because the car is, in fact, fairly large.

Some other comparisons:

BMW 750i (not the LWB version):
WB = 117.7
L = 198.4
W = 74.9
H = 58.7

So the G8 is dang near in that ballpark, though it looks like a lightweight at 3995 lbs relative to the lux'd-up 4486 lbs of the 750i.

Infiniti G35:
WB = 112.2
L = 187.0
W = 69.8
H = 57.2
Wt = ~3500 lbs
Base price in the $32k range.

Some in a different thread were commenting about the G8 not being quick enough relative to the (more expensive) G35, IS350, etc. even though it has a V8 and they have V6s. The G35 is more of a Caddy CTS / BMW 3/5 Series sized car. The G8 is significantly bigger, according to these specs (from Infiniti's website). In fact, the G35 is fractionally smaller than the G6... So comparing the G8 directly to the G35 isn't really fair. It's a size class up. The more appropriate competitor is the M35/M45:

Infiniti M45:
WB = 114.2 (close to G8)
L = 192.6 (close to G8)
W = 70.8 (4" narrower, which is a big difference)
H = 59.4
Wt = 4005 lbs (M45), with 325 hp and 336 lbft and 5 spd auto, all for $49k

So when the 306 hp G35 (400 lbs lighter and quite a bit smaller) turns in similar performance numbers to the 362 hp G8 GT, let us remember that those are two different classes of cars. The G8 offers full size car space, like the Dodge Charger.

Nissan Maxima:
WB = 111.2
L = 194.4
W = 71.7
H = 58.3
Wt = ~3600 lbs

So the Maxima is fairly close, but still a bit smaller than the G8.



Oh, and for reference vs. the 2008 CTS:

L = 191.6
WB = 113.4
W = 72.5
H = 58.0
Trk F/R = 61.8 / 62.0

So the CTS, which used to be a bit narrow (like the G35 and M45 still are), is now probably a bit closer to the M45 than the G35 in overall size. It is still a bit smaller than the G8, though. 4" shorter, 1.4" less wheelbase, 2.3" narrower...

I love 'em both.

 

The G8 is a direct competitor to the Dodge Charger in every way. And yes, larger than the CTS. And much larger than that sad, pathetic, unbelievably badly executed G6 GXP just afew feet away. (Did I ever mention that IMO someone should get fired for that one?)

 

Well, at least you can get the same hardware in the more tastefully styled G6 GTP.

Which, of course, begs the question, what is the point of the GXP package on that car? I guess to go after the ricer types who want the big wings and extreme styling.

I personally can handle the front end changes, but the overall look with the different front end and the cartoonish rear wing just isn't right...

Now quit hijacking my thread! We're talking about the G8, not the G6!

 

Okay, sorry Joe.

The G8 is big. It's a fullsized car, make no bones about it. And there's nothing at all wrong with that.

There are indications that Pontiac was watching what happened with the Charger very carefully before jumping into this segment.

I think this a good size for a 5 passenger, V8, RWD sedan though. A size which I expect the Impala to share.

 

I thought the Impala should share the Statesmans chassis which is 203.1", or are they saving that for the next gen Buick large car.

Just for comparison I'll throw in the Cadillac STS figures too

Cadillac STS:
WB =116.4"
L = 196.3"
W = 72.6"
H = 57.6"

 

For me the G8 knid of blurs the lines between mid- and full-size; yes it has a full -size wheelbase and overall width but it's shorter than a Grand Prix (or any of the other W-bodies) - for all intents and purposes a large mid-size vehicle whereas the G6 would be considered a small mid-size car. As such it lacks the overall length of GM cars I would consider traditionally full-size cars - Bonneville, Caprice, Park Avenue etc., etc. So while it's a "big" car, it's also not a "big" car - at least to me. I think the WM cars fit the "big" car definition ie. traditional GM full-size - much better.

 

While the G8 doesn't have the overall length of "big" cars from GM's past, it certainly has the interior and trunk space to go toe to toe with modern "big" cars - namely, the Charger & 300. And while the Ford Taurus (the former 500) is the supertanker of modern "big" family cars, what the G8 lacks in size it makes up in performance and looks.

This is sort of related to the size - a good sized sedan like this has the potential to replace a small/mid sized SUV for a lot of people. To that end I hope they bring a lot of the gadgets over from the Commodore/Calais, because people have become accustomed to them in SUVs and switching back to a car is that much easier if they can take the gadgets with them - namely the Nav system, backup camera, and roof mounted rear seat DVD player.

 

Holden's website lists the Commodore at 4894mm long which translates to 192.5 inches, a mere 3" longer than a G8 and about 8 shorter than a Impala-Grand Prix.

What I didn't anticipate was that the G8 would gain 4" of length in the redesign of it's new snout, and slightly different bumpers.

The point I was getting out was that Commodore (G8) was deceptively large.... shorter than a Grand Prix..... but had Crown Victoria (not Grand Prix) rear legroom (1001mm/39.4"), and pretty impressive rear shoulder room (1499/59") and luggage room (496L/17.5cu. ft.) compared to the supposedly midsize Grand Prix.

Of course, the G8 will be competing with the Charger. The cars have similar interior room (though the Charger's 16 cf trunk is slightly smaller), and as it turns out, within just a few inches of each other externally. Not implying it wasn't.

But I did imply that the G8 had nothing to worry about as far as stacking up to other RWD cars brought up that have more horsepower. The G8 has far more torque. That's what's important. When you get to the level of 362 horsepower and top speeds around 160 mph, unless you race from a rolling starts of over 100, chances are you probally aren't going to miss a mere 38 horsepower in something like 99.999999% of all of your driving.


As for the next Impala, the thing that sealed the large car deal was that it wouuld put Chevrolet back into the Police & Taxi market now dominated by Crown Vic, but in a far less unruly size.

I'm still banking on the Impala being Stetesman size because of the purpose it's going to fullfill, and comments from Lutz and other's involved. Also, there is at least 1 and probally 2 and possibly even 3 other Zeta sedans rolling down the assembly line roughly the same time as Impala starts. To me that says same size-same structure. But if GM's smallest division can make 2 cars of different size for proportionately smaller markets, there's no reason why in a far larger market it can't. Besides, Zeta is a highly configurable chassis.

 

Keep in mind that a lot of GM's older "big" cars like the Ws are only "big" because they have a huge trunk on them.

Modern styling with a short deck is going to be a shorter car even if the overall interior space is roughly the same size.

 

This subject is a messy one, a minefield with plenty of room for differences of opinion, but I’ll jump in with both feet anyway. Wikipedia has a definition of mid-size cars determined by wheelbase and interior volume (curiously it’s definition for full size cars is based on overall length, listed as greater than 197”), the EPA determines categories by interior volume as well, I believe. Rental car agencies consider the Malibu and G6 as “full-size cars”. But the manufacturers market their vehicles differently. Since the very late 70’s, when GM introduced its down-sized standard cars, and throughout the 80’s and 90’s, a simple rule of thumb concerning overall length and segments could have been:

200”+: Full Size
190”-199”: Mid Size
180”-189”: Compact
<179”: Sub-compact

Pontiac has traditionally marketed the Bonneville/Catalina/Parisienne (Bonneville G excepted) as a full-size car, The Lemans/6000/Grand Prix as mid-size, the Phoenix/Grand Am/G6 as compact and the Sunbird/Sunfire/G5 as a sub-compact. If you look at these cars’ dimensions you should find they predominately followed with the above chart.

There have always been exceptions, the 1995-2001 mid-size Lumina had a pointy front end which pushed it to 200”, unlike its W-body brothers, and the late 80’s first gen front-drive full size cars (Olds 88, Buick LeSabre) were less than 200” at 197”, but most cars followed these segment parameters.

Chrysler has lately been introducing designs with long wheelbases, very short front and rear overhangs and maximum interior volume. The current 300 has the interior volume of a full size car, but is less that 200” at 196.8”. The 300 could be considered a senior mid-size determined solely by length, but clearly could be considered a full-size car if you determine it’s category by interior volume. The Charger just gets to the 200” mark at 200.1”.

The last gen Bonneville, Pontiac’s full size car, was 202.6”, the mid-size Grand Prix is 198.3”. The G8 is smaller overall than either of these cars but does have a long wheelbase. I have not seen references to interior volume, but based on the G8’s length compared with other vehicles in Pontiac’s stable I would submit the G8 is a mid-size car, IMHO of course.

It does seem that in the last 5-7 years, Detroit has begun to market cars which would have formerly been considered sub-compact as compact, compacts as mid-size and mid-size as full size, and the G8 may certainly be marketed as a full-size by Pontiac. Maybe the days of 200” plus American land yachts (the current Crown Vic is 212”) will soon be gone for good.

 

If Ford's Interceptor concept is any indication, the Crown Vic's replacement will be 201" long and ride on a 120" wheelbase.

 

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...001/1151/VIDEO

That video Lutz explains exactly how they are able to have such a flexible architecture.

 

Interesting post, Ozone.

One thing I'd say is that, while the G8 may be a couple of inches shorter than a Grand Prix, it is also a few inches wider, so it isn't necessarily a "smaller" car. Shorter, yes.

Anyway, you are right in that the lines are blurry these days, for certain. Perhaps the G8 could be called a "large midsize", but it does seem to have full size car room.

I've thought about this before, as it pertains to the W cars and the Epsilon cars. For a while now, Chevy and Pontiac (and Olds, may she RIP) had two cars in areas where ToyoHonda had one. The Camry and Accord have grown over the last few iterations from compact family sedans to largish midsizers. Also, the Lumina gave way to the Impala, whose longer wheelbase (and, I believe, greater width) allowed it to fairly successfully make up for the loss of the Caprice, at least as far as interior space (mainly back seat space) is concerned. Pontiac has the G6 and the Grand Prix. G6 is a bit tight relative to the current Accord/Camry, mainly due to its narrower width and its coupelike roofline. I believe I read somewhere that the current Malibu, despite being on the shorter Epsilon wheelbase, offers more interior volume than the G6, thanks to the taller roofline and the more boxy side window angle (less "tumblehome"). I think the new Malibu actually LOST a cubic foot or two compared to the current one, despite the longer wheelbase. So it will likely have more legroom in the back, but perhaps will be a bit less hospitable for three across seating in the back.

I think the G6 and Malibu (and Aura) are certainly considered midsizers in marketing speak, but by EPA volume measurements, they may still be compacts.

I look at it sort of like this:

subcompact = Aveo, Fit, Yaris
compact = Cobalt, Corolla, Focus
midsize = Malibu, G6 (smaller end), Accord, Camry, Impala? (bigger end)
full size = Bonneville (RIP), Buick Lucerne, etc., 300?, Charger?

So I guess even using my own definition, I'd have to slot the G8 on the fence between midsize and full size. It is pretty spot on dimensionally with the 300 and Charger, which are considered full size (I believe).

Perhaps I should not have chosen the specific term full size, and should have focused on the fact that the car is significantly bigger and roomier than the G35 or G6, and even bigger than the Grand Prix (again, a couple of inches shorter, mainly due to the longish plastic snout of the GP, but wider and more voluminous / massive overall). My main concern was that people were going to be expecting a G35 type driving experience, when that might be an unfair expectation from a car that is signicantly roomier and, as a result, heavier.

I still expect the car to be quite fun to drive. Heck, even the W-cars can be pretty tossable when done right, while still having some of that large car feel.

 

The 300C, Charger, and Magnum all have a 120" wheelbase. I'm not sure why that's shocking.

 

I can't get over the fact that many people have posted "you won't miss the 38hp".

Referring to the difference between the 400hp LS2 and the 362hp L76. (not to mention the LS2 makes ~10 lb/ft tq more also!)

Think about it this way. . . 38hp is nearly 10% of the 400hp some of us are crying for. . .

Guy, would your SuperCoupe be all that it is if it only made 190hp instead of 210?

Would the C6 Vette be as fast and cool with 362hp?

Would the Z06 be all that it is with 450hp instead of 500??

Would the 2008 CTS be that great with 270hp instead of 300 from the direct injected 3.6L???

The answer is NO. Take any car out there, and subtract 10% of the hp. AND THAT is the logic that I apply to the G8 with 362 hp.