Chewbacca

Ah, I knew someone would bring that up.

Sales numbers. What are the total sales numbers for each division? Now what are the sales numbers for comparable models from Chevy, Cadillac and Saturn versus models from Pontiac and Buick? Those are the reasons I believe those two divisions should go away.

That is also the very reason GMC trucks will never go away. On the surface it might not make sense to overlap Chevy like that but 400K - 500K vehicles a year is not something to mess with.

Throwing money away on a new front end for the Cobalt and Equinox just to placate dealers doesn't strike me as a solid busines decision. Keeping a foreign market car like that in this thread out of the country for (IMO) fear of siphoning even more sales from Pontaic is also something that should be looked at a bit more objectively.

I really don't know the sales numbers for the comparable models but if somebody (Guy?) has them please post 'em.

graham

It sure would be cool to have in Jan beside the G8...

Z284ever

Except for the grill, this is the G8.

tamatt27

The GTO was a rebadged Holden Monaro. It was in Europe as a Vauxhall Monaro.
I don't think it's a test car for the G8 though. It goes into production in a few months. It's still cool though that Pontiac gets the first NA Zeta

AnthonyHSV

Mate they are all re-badged Holden's, GTO was a based on the old V body Holden's.

G8 is a re badge of a Zeta Commodore, Lumina is the badge it wears in the Middle East.

Chris_Doane

I know. I was just too lazy to go down the entire rebadge family tree.

30thZ286speed

I am for keeping the brands, for one I like choices. My heart lies with Chevy, but if the model they have doesn't suit me I will look at the other GM choices. For instance when we bought my wifes Intrigue (W-Body), we first looked at the Impala (W-Body), it was a nice looking car but the interior was horrible, especially the dash. Then we test drove some Intrigues and fell in love with well designed interior, upgraded materials used, and the smooth running 3.5 DOHC V6. So we have a Oldsmobile in our driveway.

Recently me and my wife had our first baby. So we are thinking of trading in the Olds on a small SUV. We looked at the Chevy Nox, but we didn't like the gray plastic cladding on the bumpers, and we didn't care for the front nose styling so we turned to the Pontiac Torrent which is much nicer styled and epuiped than the Nox. So we will probably end up going for a Torrent. Now if I can get her to hold out long enough for the Torrent GXP to come out.

I think it nice to have choices to carter to different peoples tastes, but some models GM went overboard on like the GMT355s, there for a while every brand had one except Pontiac.


**Just a note on that Mid-East Lumina SS, I wish the G8 was getting that front bumper and air damn. I really don't care for the plain looking front bumper and air damn that the G8 was shown with, which is styled like the G6.

toneloc12345

And GM wonders why all of it's global sales are up and NA sales are down....

poSSum

IMO ALL Buicks, Pontiacs, and GMCs should be re-badged Chevies.

We keep hearing how the dealership experience is what makes or breaks customer relationships .... and how it's dealerships and franchise agreements that make it prohibitively expensive for GM to drop a brand. So make Chevy a full product line for the Chevy dealerships and re-badge the Chevies for the Pontiac, Buick, GMC dealerships and let them earn the business based on customer service.

It irks me to no end that I'm "forced" to develop a relationship with both a PBG dealership and a Chevy dealership to buy our vehicles. It also irks me that Chevy truck products are arbitrarily decontented because GMC is "professional grade".

posaune

YUP!

Maximum Bob

Well, GM's plan for Pontiac & Buick is to make them niche brands so they don't expect them to sell in the same numbers as Chevy. Also, I'm not sure the plant has the capacity to do both an Chevy & a Pontiac. Pontiac is only getting ~ 30-50k a year. Which may be all that can be made. And finally, a lot of people complain about rebadged overlapping when 1 of the other divisions gets a Chevy knock off, BUT when a division gets a cool gotta have it car that will make it stand out from the others, THEN all of a sudden there's a call to make a Chevy rebadge. Which way do you REALLY want it? Either no rebadges or all rebadges? This thing of cherry picking what gets rebadged & for whom is just a bunch of hypocrisy!

Chewbacca

Exactly. That's the problem. Since they don't sell in large numbers, they wind consuming a disproportionate chunk of the financial pie.

Additionally in this case, a car that is likely to be far more attractive (based on the latest Malibu redo) than it's stateside version will never make it here because Pontiac must have some semblance of exclusivity that IMO, their sales simply don't justify.

This seems to happen to all too often at GM. Somebody somewhere gets a kick *** product idea and all of a sudden everybody wants a piece of it for themselves. Ultimately compromises get made to satisy the internal corporate politcs. That or the final version becomes either a caricature of the concept or a pale imitation.

I'm willing to bet that the "Lumina" pictured above would sell in FAR greater numbers than the G8 will. Unfortunately I'll never be able to find out if I'm right.

For the sake of argument though, let's say I am right. What would make more business sense? Spending untold time and millions of dollars to codevelop and market a Pontiac and Chevy version of this car for maybe 40K additional Pontiac sales? Or giving your bread and butter divsion the lead position to knock one out of the park and gain who knows how many sales overall? Now apply the same argument to several models. How much is this costing GM? Why are the "niche" divisions affecting product decisions for the big divisions that are going to carry GM in the future?

I thought I made that clear. I want Pontiac and Buick gone. Believe me, I don't like it. I currently own a Pontiac that was purchased after trading in a different Pontiac. I can list numerous other past Pontiacs and Buicks I would love to own and I could probably come up with an equal number of awesome pie in the sky future product ideas for each company.

The thing is, I don't think these divisions are going to be saved. I really think they are on borrowed time and we're only delaying the inevitable while harming the other divisions. GM has to get lean and they have to get mean. For the greater good and the longterm success of the company, I think Pontiac and Buick need to go away. Sad but true. FWIW I'm not sure how long Hummer will last but I can't imagine their image will be an asset in the era of escalating fuel costs. They should probably be rolled into GMC. Saab needs to be sold.

Chevy will be the full line "All American" division, Saturn will be an almost full line "High tech / Import fighter / Near Lux" division, Cadillac is obviously the high tech / full luxury division and GMC can keep doing what they're doing because it is working.

tamatt27

Why not spread the wealth of good ideas to subsidiaries of GM? Just because Holden keeps producing quality and attractive vehicles, why should GM not capitalize on the opportunity in bringing them to the states? That does not make a good business case to me. I can understand that due to the extensive line of red tape, the product may get diluted. Such as the case with the G8 ( I prefer the VE Commodore SS-V to the G8) but I am still very glad that Holden vehicles are coming to NA.
I have no doubt that Chevrolet is a major division at GM, but it is not the only one. I suppose that you would be happy if GM just changed their name to Chevrolet and rolled all the products from other divisions into one. GM knows that they need these brands to appeal to different customers. GMC is still around, and all of their product line is rebadges. The fact is that some people will never buy a Chevrolet due to the fact that they've had bad experiences in the past, and will go look at, say, a GMC or Pontiac instead. That is why they look at other divisions for vehicle needs. Public perception sells cars as well as product. This is true for any brand, not just GM.
There is no business case that GM cannot be successful without Pontiac or Buick. Product is an important part in selling cars, and the G8 is a big step in the right direction for Pontiac. I am all for Pontiac becoming the North American Holden, just as Saturn has become the North American Opel because they've both got great lineups. Buick is thriving in China, and has great product over there (see the Chinese Buick Park Avenue). Why GMNA can't bring the Chinese Park Ave over here to the states, who knows. It is senseless to throw away the heritage and name brand recognition of Buick and Pontiac and keep a brand that's been around for less than 20 years.

Chewbacca

For the exact reason I outlined in the section of my post you quoted.

Did you read anything I wrote? A large part of my rant is that there are great foreign market products that are being kept foreign market.

Please show me where I said that. I think I made it clear that I don't (ie. DO NOT) like the idea of divisions going away but it has to be done.

And once again, none of those divisions save GMC have the sales to justify the cost.

Yes and the public perception of GM is brand engineering.

Please see the bottom of my last post here....
Seems like going with your strongest divisions would be a fairly solid business plan if it was actually your money and livelihood on the line instead of only your emotions.

I would also like to see that but it's not going to happen. Right now we know of future products out to what? 2009? 2010? Does it look like Holden is riding over the horizon to Pontiac's rescue? Nope.

Now this might be a way to save the brands for a return in the future. Make them foreign market brands ala Opel. Not sure where Pontiac could go though.

Being a slave to the past is what got GM into the position it's in.



Look, I knew full well that the Pontiac fanboys here would get up in arms over my post. Say it with me now... I like Pontiacs. I currently own a Pontiac. I have owned Pontiacs in the past. My family owns Pontiacs. My family has owned Pontiacs in the past. I am not a Pontiac hater.

What I am though, is a pragmatist. You simply have to look at this situation objectively.

Josh452

Everybody wants a Kappa.

Where's the Chevy Kappa? That's all I heard and got e-mails about for the first year the Solstice was made.

"Where's the Chevy Kappa?"