IZ28

Guion said something that I and and a few others didn't like in another post. He said something about Pontiac having faster cars in general over the other divisions. I do not agree with that at all and think Chevrolet should have at least the fastest "special" cars such as Camaro/Corvette etc. If Pontiac wanted faster regular cars such as sedans, I think I'd be OK with that though. So vote which division you think should be the all around performance leader. I think most people already associate Chevrolet as this.

Z28Wilson

You can't have it both ways. Chevy cannot be both the "value" leader and the "performance" leader at GM at the same time. You continue to underestimate Pontiac's own performance heritage (no matter how often the truly Original Muscle Car, GTO, and how the Trans Am put a whooping on Z28 Camaros throughout the 2nd Gen, is brought up)....I have no problem with Pontiac carrying the performance flag overall, as long as Chevy gets a world-class Corvette, a ground-pounding Camaro and some decent full-size RWD offerings. That's the way it has always been, no?

Z28x

Overall the Vette will be top with the Z06 and ZL1

Model for model, I give it to Pontiac, G6 should be faster than the Malibu, same with GTP/Impala and GTO/Camaro

HuJass

Z28Wilson is right. Chevy can't have the best performance while being the value leader. And Chevy is already (and always has been) GM's value division.
And Pontiac has always been GM performance division.

I'm not denying that Chevy had a whole slew of superfast cars at one time. But everybody did back in the late 60s.

One thing you guys have to realize, is that Chevy's fast cars (except Corvette & Camaro) did one thing well. And that's going fast in a straight line.
Pontiac was more concerned with overall performance. While they weren't substantially better than their stablemate at Chevy, they were better in overall driving dynamics.

IZ28

It seems to me that Chevrolet is the division that usually had the faster cars, except for the mid-later 70's!! I mean most people out there spell performance CHEVROLET, you know the division named after the racecar driver?!

RiceEating5.0

I think Cadillac should have the fastest cars since they cost the most, but of those two, i'd say Pontiac. Isn't it supposed to be the "excitement division". What's their other line? "Fuel for the soul"? It supposed to make drivers passionate about driving them. Passion usually equals performance.

guionM

OK, lets look at history and see what's really taken place between Chevrolet & Pontiac.

1. Which 3rd gen F-body had the higher top speed?

Pontiac's Firebird Trans Am.


2. Which division had the quickest "W" Body?

Pontiac's Grand Prix GTP. Before that, Pontiac's Turbo Grand Prix.


3. Which division had the quickest "J" bodies?

Pontiac's Turbo Sunbirds.


4. Which division carried the most performance cars (by models) in the 1970s?

Pontiac. GTO, Trans Ams (with multiple high displacement engines), and Formula Firebirds (also with multiple engines.


5. Which division carried a bigger variety of 4th gen performance Firebirds?

Pontiac: Formula, Trans Am, & Trans Am WS6. You can also include the Firehawk. Makes those stupid Z28 vs SS arguments look pretty lame, doesn't it?


6. Which division had the biggest, most powerful engines in the downsized B-bodies in the late 70s between the 2?

Pontiac. They were running 403 Bonnevilles, while Chevy ran 350 Caprices the 1st year, and 305s the 2nd (you could still get a 350 if you were in Law Enforcement, or ordered during a rare time the engine option wasn't blacked out).


7. Which division got a special edition powertrain as a 20th anneversary model?

Pontiac. The Trans Am got a tire melting Turbo V6. All Camaro anniversary cars have been tape or paint schemes (in fact, the 35th anniversary SS was pretty extensive by Camaro anniversary standards).

8. Which F-body produced the most horsepower in 1970: The SS396 Camaro, or the Ram Air IV Trans Am?

Pontiac's Firebird: 370hp vs 350 for the Chevy. Even the regular Ram Air Formula 400 put out 345 horses. The Z28 put out 360, but was still 10 shy of the T/A. BTW: both Chevys would loose in a drag race.


9. Top Horsepower & acceleration in '72. GTO or LS5 Chevelle SS?

Pontiac GTO (270 vs 300 horses, 390 vs 415 torque).


10. Which division has a solid history rooted in Drag Racing dating back to the late 1950s?

Pontiac.

11. Which division made the quickest full sized rides in the early 60s?

Pontiac: Super Duty 421s were bigger and more powerful than Chevy's 409s (which in reality weren't very durible engines). Bonneville & Impalas were roughly the same size & weight, in case you were wondering.


12. Which had a "performance" mid sized car in 1977 in the muscle car tradition?

Pontiac, with it's newly introduced Can Am, with the Trans Am's T/A 6.6 engine. http://www.angelfire.com/wa/angryclo...AmHistory.html


13. Who got a version of Oldsmobile's High powered Quad-4 in the 80s?

Pontiac. The same time Chevy was making due with an OHV 4. Yes, an Over head valve 4. The updated "Iron Duke".


14. Who got Buick's supercharged V6s in the 90s?
Pontac. Chevy ran DOHC 3.1 then NA 3.8s. Neither came close to the SC 3.8 in performance.

The G6 is getting a supercharged V6. The Malibu SS isn't.

The Grand Prix GTP puts out more horses than new supercharged Impala SS.

The GTP coupe was quicker than the Monte Carlo by far.

Pontiacs also traditionally cost more than Chevrolet, model for model. Do you think GM is, or has ever put MORE performance muscle in the CHEAPEST edition of a particular car body? Let's be realistic here.

Chevrolet has been about volume, value, and performance just behind Pontiac (Corvette being the exception). If you want quicker cars than Chevrolet, you bought Pontiac. If you wanted to step up in luxury, you went with Oldsmobile or Buick. Cadillac was the top of the chain in both, so having Cadillacs as the fastest as well as the most luxurious of GM products is right in line with it's history.

Of course, predicting who'll win a poll on whether Chevrolet or Pontiac should have the quickest cars on a Chevrolet website isn't exactly rocket science & doesn't take psyhic abilities. But that doesn't change reality at all.

Z28Wilson

Leave it to guionM to actually provide evidence of Pontiac's performance position compared to Chevy. Good examples.

I'm not going to downplay Chevy's performance history, it is extensive, but as I said Chevy has always been the value leader at GM, and the performance available in Chevys compared to the other GM divisions reflects that. Always has.

Z284ever

Yep...but that was because of the better aero numbers from the retractable headlights. That same lower nose also restricted the the Firebird's intake costing it 5-10 hp. All things being equal...a 3rd gen Camaro would always outrun a 3rd gen Firebird in the 1/4 mile



It was a tie with the S/C Regal

OK...I can't argue there.


Yeah, but not including Corvette....Camaro SS, Camaro Z/28, Chevelle SS including LS-6, Chevelle Heavy Chevy, Nova SS and Yenko, Laguna S3, Monza Spyder, Monza Mirage, Cosworth Vega...that's off the top of my head, I may be missing some.




Ok, but the 403 came from Olds, and I'm not sure if a 403 Bonneville was any faster than an LM-1 Impala.


Sorry, gotta cut it short for now.

Guion, you make lotsa good points, (as usual),, but every GM division has had notable performance cars at different times, including Pontiac and Chevy.

Performance wise I'd hate to see a Z/28 playing second fiddle to a GTO.

guionM

a. 3rd gen's top speed.

You're right, it was aerodynamics. But the 5-10hp loss was negilable in actual speed runs. Acceleration runs between the 2 were a dead heat with the slight edge going to Z28 (tighter suspension tuning).

b. Quickest "W" body.

You also got that one, it was technically Buick's engine. But keeping it between Pontiac & Chevy, Chevy wasn't even in the game.

c. Most performance models.

*Camaro had Z28 & SS, Pontiac Formula & Trans Am. Z had 1 engine, SS had 2 (plus a extra version of the 396). Formula had 3 engines as did Trans Am. Yenko was a dealer as was Berger.
*Chevelle SS & GTO, Heavy Chevy vs LeMans GT(http://www.geocities.com/lemansgt37/Lemansgt37.html), Laguna S-3 vs Grand Am (which came with the SD455 optional while the S-3 had a regular Chevy 454) http://www.abodysite.com/73hisbook.html, Monza Spyder vs Formula Sunbird (http://monza.homestead.com/formula.html).

I'll give you the Monza Mirage, if you'll give me the Trans Am GTA. You got me on the Cosworth Vega, though.

d. Bonneville 403 vs Caprice 350.

The Bonnie 403, 185hp/ 320torque. Known for heaps of power between 60 & 100, and for smoking tire off the line in almost everything. Not known for high revving. Typically low 9s in 0-60 runs.
The Caprice 350, 170hp/ 270torque. Smooth power delivery, but not a tire smoker in the Caprice. Typically upper 9s to low 10s in 0-60 runs.

DaxsZ28

This could go on for days!!

Isn't the Small Block Chevy the winningist engine in racing history?

SFireGT98

I think I can handle Pontiac having more performance than Chevy. As history as shown (in real life and in this thread, thanks Guion ) Pontiac has had the slight performance edge over most Chevy's. The key word there is "slight" so I dont think its anything to get too upset over. Plus if you think about it, you could imagine a 04 GTP driver slamming it through the gears and ripping around corners much easier than imagining the same person doing that in S/C Impala SS.

And GTO is now Pontiac's halo car so if it holds a slight performance edge over the Camaro, I dont think thats too big of a deal. Even though it is much easier to see a person ripping around a track in a Camaro than a GTO

guionM

I'd have to look it up, but you can say Chevrolet had the best V8 engines at General Motors in the late 70s. When General Motors made the decision to consolidate V8 engines in the late 70s, the lightest most fuel efficent V8s were from Chevrolet, so everyone else had their engines discontinued. Olds, Buick, & Pontiac lost their engines to Chevrolet, which became a "corperate" engine.

Chevrolet's LM1 V8 engines are incredibly responsive to brething improvements. It's camshaft has high lift, long duration profile on both intake & exhaust. This profile is dervived from the old 302 Z28 engines!
The purpose was to offset the engine's low 8.2 compression ratio! Open up the breathing & exhaust of these engines, and there will be a dramatic increase of power. That's how the exact same engine that made just 165hp in 1977 Camaro 350s, made 190hp Z28s just a couple of years later (the cold air scoop adds less than 5hp). It's even capable of more with modern converters & a free brething exhaust, and a higher capacity carburetor, manifold, and induction system.

Something you may not know: Pontiac and Oldsmobile V8 blocks have the same exterior dimensions, regardless of displacement, but the internals and the casting (especially of the smaller engines) are vastly different. The 455s had a taller block casting like Ford's Windsor engine (the 351 is taller than the 302, but otherwise mostly the same) but was generally the same as the 350s.

BTW, Oldsmobile Trivia: Oldsmobile had a midsized Cutlass called the Hurst/Olds with a 403 in it in 1980. It ran 13.6 quarter miles stock, from the factory, making it the quickest stock G-body, over the later Monte Carlo SS.

DarthIROC

I agree with everything there,save that the GTO should be faster than the Camaro. I think teh Camaro should have a slight edge. But I think a Trans Am should be faster than the Camaro

Z284ever

OK, I'm back.

The Bonneville got the 403 because it was the larger C-body, as was the Olds 98 and the Buick Electra. The Impala/Caprice was the smaller B-body. The Catalina was Pontiac's B-body and it's largest engine was a 5.7L.

The Hurst/Olds that you mention was a '79. It came with the "R" code 350 found in the larger 88 and 98. It was rated at 170 hp. Strange that Olds wouldn't use the larger 403 in it's limited production halo car....but for some reason they stuck with the 350. Stock, they'd do 16's. Laughable today....but respectable back then. My best friend got one as a high school graduation present, ($9K back then, is probably equivalent to getting a $35K+ WS6 T/A today....nice present). We spent alot of summer nights cruising the W-30.

It was a very neat car, with special two tone paint and trim and a very cool Hurst Dualgate to play with. A 4 speed Z/28 however, would blow it's doors off....a T/A 6.6, would absolutely eat it for lunch.

The early 2nd gen RamAir T/A's were very fast and stylish cars....but a properly driven and geared LT-1 Z/28 could run with them. A '73 SD 455 would usually run mid to high 13's in the road tests of the time....but as we all know now....every Pontiac press car of that era was a massaged "ringer". I wonder if the ones consumers got could actually break into the 13's ..... stock?
True, in the late '70s, T/A had it all over the Z/28, especially the '79 T/A 6.6....but those days pretty much ended after 1979.....1989 turbo T/A notwithstanding.

At any rate.....I can handle the G6 being more performance oriented than the Malibu SS and even the Comp G being faster than Impala SS. I can also accept the GTO as an ultra performance Pontiac halo car....but the top Camaro must perform at least as well or better.