Caprice likely to be sold to the Public
07-18-2010, 12:48 PM
#46
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Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
PUBLIC INTREST HAD LITTLE TO DO WITH IT.
Here's the deal.
The issue with selling the Caprice to the general public centered around CAFE standards. This is based not per vehicle (as many mistakenly believe) but on "Fleet Averages". In short, the more a vehicle sells, the greater inpact it has on a car company's CAFE numbers. It's great news if your'e selling a gazillion high mileage cars. But it's bad news if you're selling that number of low mileage cars.
Cars like the upcoming Camaro Z28 as well as the current CTSv and Corvette ZR1 are relatively low production vehicles. The effect those few thousand models per year have on CAFE is neglible next to the the hundreds of thousands of Malibus and other mainstream cars GM sells. So it all becomes a numbers game.... and the numbers are CAFE.
If GM sells a modest number of Caprices, then the car won't effect CAFE. If the Caprice sells like gangbusters on the 4th of July, then GM would have shot itself in the foot over CAFE numbers.
In short, the more successful the Caprice is (especially if everyone buys top gun LS3 versions) the more headache GM has because it has to push more small cars to counter it's effects. Again, high powered ZR1s, Z28s, and V's sales volumes aren't even a drop in the bucket in sales volume, so they don't have an effect.
To the point that the Caprice needs to sell in volume here to make money, that is a moot point. The Caprice is already sold in profitable volumes in Australia. It's also making money on the side selling in China, Korea, South Africa, New Zealand, and especially Middle East countries. The car also has US automotive compliance baked into the car from the day it was designed and engineered. Like the G8, little more than taking the LHD mid-east version and adding US specific software for both airbags and engine management is involved. GM will at the very minimum break even on every one they sell as long as the US dollar doesn't implode against the Aussie dollar.
So, demand has little to do with Caprice going public. If anything, it's to GM's advantage for Caprice to be sold in showrooms. More cars means a greater and cheaper parts network, and maintence costs are very important to public agencies on a budget. Especially now. Yes, they actually take all this into account when purchasing vehicles.
The Dodge Charger is currently taking the lion's share of Ford's Crown Vic business (Pennsylvania State Police is the latest in switching to the Charger for future purchases). Maintence costs for the Charger against any Police vehicle that has miniscule vehicles is among the lowest (and why Carbon will almost certainly fail unless it also sells to the public).
Caprice is coming to your showrooms (after it goes through it's redesign).
THIS Caprice is being sold to just police because GM didn't want to wait for the upcoming Caprice and miss out on a golden opportunity in regaining a share of the Law Enforcement market at the demise of the Crown Victoria.
Rest assured, we're getting ours after the redesign.
07-18-2010, 12:58 PM
#47
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
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Did you not read anything as to what was said or what I wrote?
The Detective model will feature an entirely different interior. It won't have any of the "bells and whistles" as the police model. In essence, it will be a police vehicle stripped of everything police.
The interior is going to be nothing like that of the police model.
To combat your other point - GM was counting on something from the LAPD pretty quick but it didn't happen. So, GM went ahead and budgeted the PPV program with what they *thought* they could sell to fleet. This was before the Ford program was ever shown. Add in the relationship with police programs and Ford and insert a monkey wrench as you see fit.
Add more mouths to feed and you get a smaller bite of the pie.
Make sense yet?
The Detective model will feature an entirely different interior. It won't have any of the "bells and whistles" as the police model. In essence, it will be a police vehicle stripped of everything police.
The interior is going to be nothing like that of the police model.
To combat your other point - GM was counting on something from the LAPD pretty quick but it didn't happen. So, GM went ahead and budgeted the PPV program with what they *thought* they could sell to fleet. This was before the Ford program was ever shown. Add in the relationship with police programs and Ford and insert a monkey wrench as you see fit.
Add more mouths to feed and you get a smaller bite of the pie.
Make sense yet?
Here is the 9C1 interior fully outfitted. But just about everything you see installed in this vehicle is aftermarket.
This pic. is a close representation of what the 9C3 will look like with the regular center console, even though this pic. is really a G8 mock up.
Like I said before the 9C1 and 9C3 will be exactly the same other than the center console and full-size wheel covers.
Everybody knew Ford wasn't going sit back and hand over the police market when the Crown Vic ends. Ford was very clear that they had something coming, when they announced the end of the Crown Vic last year. There was all kinds of wild speculation of importing Falcons, rehabbing the panther chassis, etc.
I think there will be a major market swing next year after the Crown Vic leaves, but I think the pie will be more evenly divided, instead of Ford having most of the pie.
07-18-2010, 04:12 PM
#50
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Location: The Golden State
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Yep. That's the plan so far.
07-18-2010, 04:27 PM
#51
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Location: The Golden State
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See..this is exactly what is wrong with the argument that if you take a Pontiac car, and sell it in a Chevy dealer..it will sell better.
The whole Pontiac brand from the 1960's till the G series cars was about "expressive" and "Aggressive" over the top design. People bought them because they wanted something more expressive than a Chevy. Same reason people buy a Mazda 6 or Altima instead of a Camry or Accord. The G8 i think was the first car Pontiac put out in a long time that was true to what Pontiac should be. An aggressive car that could walk the walk. That being said, it had a few compromises, cost more than the competition, and was volume limited due to being exported..so it was never gonna sell in volume.
Either way..I digress. In my mind..the car pictured above is a victim of what happens when a car becomes a Chevy. This is a car they want to sell to fleets..so it has to be bland, wear a corprate face, and be an everymans car.
If I were Chevy..I would see how many Caprices I can sell to fleets..and then try and plug the gaps with loaded out Ute's instead. I think a UTE would be easier to sell then the bland Caprice above.
The whole Pontiac brand from the 1960's till the G series cars was about "expressive" and "Aggressive" over the top design. People bought them because they wanted something more expressive than a Chevy. Same reason people buy a Mazda 6 or Altima instead of a Camry or Accord. The G8 i think was the first car Pontiac put out in a long time that was true to what Pontiac should be. An aggressive car that could walk the walk. That being said, it had a few compromises, cost more than the competition, and was volume limited due to being exported..so it was never gonna sell in volume.
Either way..I digress. In my mind..the car pictured above is a victim of what happens when a car becomes a Chevy. This is a car they want to sell to fleets..so it has to be bland, wear a corprate face, and be an everymans car.
If I were Chevy..I would see how many Caprices I can sell to fleets..and then try and plug the gaps with loaded out Ute's instead. I think a UTE would be easier to sell then the bland Caprice above.
2. Even if you wanted to reach and say that the G8 was a Pontiac, then you still miss that this is not the G8 or the Commodore it's based on. It's a Holden Caprice/Statesman... also sold as the Chevrolet Caprice. It has an entirely different exterior and interior.
3. If you want to dismiss both points, then the entire point of selling a Pontiac as a chevy also caves in on itself because of 2 facts dismissing these previous 2 points brings up:
a) That like the G8/Commodore and the Caprice/Statesman, everything in Pontiac's showroom is also a reskinned and re-interiored car from another GM division.
b) If you dismiss the exterior and interior differences between the G8/Commodore and the Caprice/Statesman and call it the same, you also have to dismiss the same differences between the G6 and Malibu, Solstice & Sky, and pretty much every thing else in Pontiac's lineup.
4. The view you have of Pontiac's history is a history that hasn't existed 30 years. That's like Studebaker of 1964 refering to Studebaker of 1934 as a reason to survive.
5. The Caprice will do a far better job at filling law enforcement's needs than the current Impala (or upcoming Taurus based Interceptor) will do.
Most repairs involve the front end of the car. It's far more expensive reparing the front end of FWD cars than RWD because there's more up there. Engine, transmission, driveshafts, etc...
6. Finally, GM doesn't have to sell a billion of them to make money. In fact, it's to GM's advantage that they don't (see CAFE).
I like many of the older brigade were once huge fans of Pontiac. We have memories of Trans Ams, Pontiac's performance engines that were sent out of the factory in regular emissions garb and a wink, just waiting for those knowledgable to unleash the beast (even HO Iron Duke 4s had race grade connecting rods and pistons, and could handle turbo or supercharging dependably with no interior upgrades).
But keep in mind that Pontiac not only became a division who sent roughly 65% of their cars to fleet buyers, but it also of the 35% of it's sales that did manage to be sold retail of all brands sold in the US, foreign and domestic, Pontiac held the title of the highest percentage of female buyers. If my recollection is right, something like 70%.
If you do the math, and discount all fleet and female buyers, what's left isn't enough to hold a good card game, let alone live up to an image Pontiac had decades ago.
Again, I was a Pontiac fan. I posted heaps about how I felt GM erred in keeping Buick and ditched Pontiac. But when you look at the facts and numbers, being a fan simply isn't enough. Nor is wishing and hoping to restore a brand that spent 30+ years being altered into something else.
Pontiac is nothing more than a Chevy with a different name and skin. The male customer base is simply a Chevrolet buyer with a bit more money (see: Firebird customer profile).
In the end, the demise of Pontiac means better Chevrolets.
Even I can't argue with that.
Last edited by guionM; 07-18-2010 at 04:40 PM.
07-18-2010, 10:57 PM
#52
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Roseville, MI, USA
Posts: 1,496
I did read your post here and at your site. But I don't understand what you mean by the detective model will have entirely different interior without any of the "bells and whistles"? If you are talking about equipment like computers, radios, cameras, gun racks, etc. All of that is aftermarket and is ordered separately. When you order a police vehicle, it comes in bare bones. With Chevrolet you can outfit police vehicles with some equipment when you order them through Kerr Industries.
Here is the 9C1 interior fully outfitted. But just about everything you see installed in this vehicle is aftermarket.
This pic. is a close representation of what the 9C3 will look like with the regular center console, even though this pic. is really a G8 mock up.
Like I said before the 9C1 and 9C3 will be exactly the same other than the center console and full-size wheel covers.
Everybody knew Ford wasn't going sit back and hand over the police market when the Crown Vic ends. Ford was very clear that they had something coming, when they announced the end of the Crown Vic last year. There was all kinds of wild speculation of importing Falcons, rehabbing the panther chassis, etc.
I think there will be a major market swing next year after the Crown Vic leaves, but I think the pie will be more evenly divided, instead of Ford having most of the pie.
Here is the 9C1 interior fully outfitted. But just about everything you see installed in this vehicle is aftermarket.
This pic. is a close representation of what the 9C3 will look like with the regular center console, even though this pic. is really a G8 mock up.
Like I said before the 9C1 and 9C3 will be exactly the same other than the center console and full-size wheel covers.
Everybody knew Ford wasn't going sit back and hand over the police market when the Crown Vic ends. Ford was very clear that they had something coming, when they announced the end of the Crown Vic last year. There was all kinds of wild speculation of importing Falcons, rehabbing the panther chassis, etc.
I think there will be a major market swing next year after the Crown Vic leaves, but I think the pie will be more evenly divided, instead of Ford having most of the pie.
As for the computers, etc being aftermarket. True they aren't factory installed, but they also aren't just aftermarket, I can say that with confidence in the case of the Caprice PPV.
Now my question becomes.....is the Caprice PPV called the Detective without all the computers and "bells and whistles" going to feature the newly refreshed interior that the Caprice in other regions will see.
That will make a significant difference if this Caprice sees U.S. retail sale.
07-19-2010, 11:48 PM
#53
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,698
Ahhh...Guy...I have needed a sparing buddy for a while.
By that measure, it's not a Chevy, either, it's a Holden. And all of Buick is really an Opel.
Are we in alternate reality here? G8 was a Pontiac..and widely lauded as the best Pontiac in a long time. It was too little to late however. Holden by in large makes the kind of cars Pontiac should have had.
My point is...everyone runs around and goes.."OMGZ, everything Pontiac makes would sell so much better in a Chevy showroom". Then it shows up in a Chevy showroom, in plain Cheby clothes and everyone is like "OMGZ, that is yuckky boring". By in large Chevy's are designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Pontiac's had expressive styling not meant for everyone.
No really..I actually have a view of Pontiac from 1979 to about 2002. Pontiac's didn't need to be heaps faster than the Chevy's the were based on. But they had to be nicer, and more expressive. Pontiac died when GM stopped replacing some lines (Bonneville, Sunfire), replaced others with crap G6, Grand Prix), and lastly renamed their two best selling cars (Grand Am and Grand Prix)
No one is arguing this.
This is fine..I was responding to everyone complaining the car is boring. Outside of Camaro and Corvette, Chevy is largely boring.
There is a ton of arguing that can be done.
A.) Buick overlaps with Cadillac in areas like XTS
B.) Buick was closer to death in the US than Pontiac. 2 years ago, they only sold three models, two of which were on platforms about to die.
C.) Buick may do well in China, but that does not mean the brand had to continue in the US. There is plenty of stuff sold in the US that is not sold here.
D.) Buick/GMC dealers now suck. You either have luxury trucks, or mid lux cars. Nothing on the low end.
E.) Killing Pontiac for a better Chevrolet is like divorcing your wife so you can do better at work. Just like your personal and work life is seperate, so are Pontiac and Chevrolet buyers. Sure, you may do better at work..but at the end of the day you still don't have the wife. If you cancel Pontiac..maybe you make Chevy's that are 2-3% bigger...but you gave up a brand that 10 years ago was your 3rd best selling brand.
By that measure, it's not a Chevy, either, it's a Holden. And all of Buick is really an Opel.
2. Even if you wanted to reach and say that the G8 was a Pontiac, then you still miss that this is not the G8 or the Commodore it's based on. It's a Holden Caprice/Statesman... also sold as the Chevrolet Caprice. It has an entirely different exterior and interior.
3. If you want to dismiss both points, then the entire point of selling a Pontiac as a chevy also caves in on itself because of 2 facts dismissing these previous 2 points brings up:
a) That like the G8/Commodore and the Caprice/Statesman, everything in Pontiac's showroom is also a reskinned and re-interiored car from another GM division.
b) If you dismiss the exterior and interior differences between the G8/Commodore and the Caprice/Statesman and call it the same, you also have to dismiss the same differences between the G6 and Malibu, Solstice & Sky, and pretty much every thing else in Pontiac's lineup.
a) That like the G8/Commodore and the Caprice/Statesman, everything in Pontiac's showroom is also a reskinned and re-interiored car from another GM division.
b) If you dismiss the exterior and interior differences between the G8/Commodore and the Caprice/Statesman and call it the same, you also have to dismiss the same differences between the G6 and Malibu, Solstice & Sky, and pretty much every thing else in Pontiac's lineup.
4. The view you have of Pontiac's history is a history that hasn't existed 30 years. That's like Studebaker of 1964 refering to Studebaker of 1934 as a reason to survive.
5. The Caprice will do a far better job at filling law enforcement's needs than the current Impala (or upcoming Taurus based Interceptor) will do.
Most repairs involve the front end of the car. It's far more expensive reparing the front end of FWD cars than RWD because there's more up there. Engine, transmission, driveshafts, etc...
Most repairs involve the front end of the car. It's far more expensive reparing the front end of FWD cars than RWD because there's more up there. Engine, transmission, driveshafts, etc...
6. Finally, GM doesn't have to sell a billion of them to make money. In fact, it's to GM's advantage that they don't (see CAFE).
I like many of the older brigade were once huge fans of Pontiac. We have memories of Trans Ams, Pontiac's performance engines that were sent out of the factory in regular emissions garb and a wink, just waiting for those knowledgable to unleash the beast (even HO Iron Duke 4s had race grade connecting rods and pistons, and could handle turbo or supercharging dependably with no interior upgrades).
But keep in mind that Pontiac not only became a division who sent roughly 65% of their cars to fleet buyers, but it also of the 35% of it's sales that did manage to be sold retail of all brands sold in the US, foreign and domestic, Pontiac held the title of the highest percentage of female buyers. If my recollection is right, something like 70%.
If you do the math, and discount all fleet and female buyers, what's left isn't enough to hold a good card game, let alone live up to an image Pontiac had decades ago.
Again, I was a Pontiac fan. I posted heaps about how I felt GM erred in keeping Buick and ditched Pontiac. But when you look at the facts and numbers, being a fan simply isn't enough. Nor is wishing and hoping to restore a brand that spent 30+ years being altered into something else.
Pontiac is nothing more than a Chevy with a different name and skin. The male customer base is simply a Chevrolet buyer with a bit more money (see: Firebird customer profile).
In the end, the demise of Pontiac means better Chevrolets.
Even I can't argue with that.
But keep in mind that Pontiac not only became a division who sent roughly 65% of their cars to fleet buyers, but it also of the 35% of it's sales that did manage to be sold retail of all brands sold in the US, foreign and domestic, Pontiac held the title of the highest percentage of female buyers. If my recollection is right, something like 70%.
If you do the math, and discount all fleet and female buyers, what's left isn't enough to hold a good card game, let alone live up to an image Pontiac had decades ago.
Again, I was a Pontiac fan. I posted heaps about how I felt GM erred in keeping Buick and ditched Pontiac. But when you look at the facts and numbers, being a fan simply isn't enough. Nor is wishing and hoping to restore a brand that spent 30+ years being altered into something else.
Pontiac is nothing more than a Chevy with a different name and skin. The male customer base is simply a Chevrolet buyer with a bit more money (see: Firebird customer profile).
In the end, the demise of Pontiac means better Chevrolets.
Even I can't argue with that.
There is a ton of arguing that can be done.
A.) Buick overlaps with Cadillac in areas like XTS
B.) Buick was closer to death in the US than Pontiac. 2 years ago, they only sold three models, two of which were on platforms about to die.
C.) Buick may do well in China, but that does not mean the brand had to continue in the US. There is plenty of stuff sold in the US that is not sold here.
D.) Buick/GMC dealers now suck. You either have luxury trucks, or mid lux cars. Nothing on the low end.
E.) Killing Pontiac for a better Chevrolet is like divorcing your wife so you can do better at work. Just like your personal and work life is seperate, so are Pontiac and Chevrolet buyers. Sure, you may do better at work..but at the end of the day you still don't have the wife. If you cancel Pontiac..maybe you make Chevy's that are 2-3% bigger...but you gave up a brand that 10 years ago was your 3rd best selling brand.
07-20-2010, 12:48 AM
#55
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 2,802
Exactly.. I think the above Commodore with the Chevy badge looks better than both the Holden badge and the G8. Yes I like the Chevy Badge better than the Holden badge. Ill be up front in saying Im not looking for either one. Looks wise though Commodore hands down.
See..this is exactly what is wrong with the argument that if you take a Pontiac car, and sell it in a Chevy dealer..it will sell better.
The whole Pontiac brand from the 1960's till the G series cars was about "expressive" and "Aggressive" over the top design. People bought them because they wanted something more expressive than a Chevy. Same reason people buy a Mazda 6 or Altima instead of a Camry or Accord. The G8 i think was the first car Pontiac put out in a long time that was true to what Pontiac should be. An aggressive car that could walk the walk. That being said, it had a few compromises, cost more than the competition, and was volume limited due to being exported..so it was never gonna sell in volume.
Either way..I digress. In my mind..the car pictured above is a victim of what happens when a car becomes a Chevy. This is a car they want to sell to fleets..so it has to be bland, wear a corprate face, and be an everymans car.
The whole Pontiac brand from the 1960's till the G series cars was about "expressive" and "Aggressive" over the top design. People bought them because they wanted something more expressive than a Chevy. Same reason people buy a Mazda 6 or Altima instead of a Camry or Accord. The G8 i think was the first car Pontiac put out in a long time that was true to what Pontiac should be. An aggressive car that could walk the walk. That being said, it had a few compromises, cost more than the competition, and was volume limited due to being exported..so it was never gonna sell in volume.
Either way..I digress. In my mind..the car pictured above is a victim of what happens when a car becomes a Chevy. This is a car they want to sell to fleets..so it has to be bland, wear a corprate face, and be an everymans car.
I must be missing something here because some in this thread seems to be using Holden Caprice and Holden Commodore/G8 interchangeably and not one person seems to have had posted a bad reaction in this thread to Pontiacs counterpart Holden Commodore/ Mid East Chevy Lumina
Having said that the GTO/Monaro would have been a prime example of what you meant and youd be dead on.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 07-20-2010 at 01:00 AM.
07-20-2010, 09:00 AM
#56
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheektowaga, NY (Buffalo)
Posts: 578
Regarding your frist line, don't flatter yourself so much. You're not in GuionM's league. I mean this much more as a compliment to him than as an insult to you. He comes of as very well informed and does an amazing job of composing clear and concise arguments. I'll be honest and say that I don't write as well as GuionM either and I'm absolutely not as well informed on the automotive world as he is.
07-20-2010, 11:51 AM
#58
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,698
Is there really a need to be insulting here? I didn't throw stones at anyone or insult them.
What is wrong with Buick and GMC being sold together without entry level vehicles? I'm sure many of the dealers are upset because they lost volume and have to adjust their business accordingly, but I see it as a positive from GM's perspective because it elevates the image of those two brands by not having entry level vehicles on the same lot and showroom floor.
Regarding your frist line, don't flatter yourself so much. You're not in GuionM's league. I mean this much more as a compliment to him than as an insult to you. He comes of as very well informed and does an amazing job of composing clear and concise arguments. I'll be honest and say that I don't write as well as GuionM either and I'm absolutely not as well informed on the automotive world as he is.
Regarding your frist line, don't flatter yourself so much. You're not in GuionM's league. I mean this much more as a compliment to him than as an insult to you. He comes of as very well informed and does an amazing job of composing clear and concise arguments. I'll be honest and say that I don't write as well as GuionM either and I'm absolutely not as well informed on the automotive world as he is.
07-20-2010, 12:45 PM
#59
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheektowaga, NY (Buffalo)
Posts: 578
I could use the "context is easily lost on the internet" excuse here, but I shouldn't have posted what I did... I knew I was coming off as insulting you, but I truely wasn't going for that result. It was kind of a smart *** (or maybe dumbass) way to go about comlimenting Guy's posts on this site. I should've said something closer to "It's tough to debate on equal ground with GuionM because he makes very compelling arguments". Sorry dude, didn't mean to throw a stone.
07-20-2010, 12:47 PM
#60
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
Wasn't the complaint about "old" GM that every brand under the sun had to have a full model lineup, therefore seriously watering down ALL the products?
I don't feel that Buick needs a FWD compact.
I don't feel that GMC needs anything smaller than the Terrain, unless they are fine with "Jeep Compass" syndrome.