Can you say "cover-up"??
01-28-2010, 08:13 AM
#1
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Can you say "cover-up"??
http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...s-Toyota-asked
Elkhart company: We did as Toyota asked
Analysts hint problem behind recall lies with engine controls, not pedals
By Ted Evanoff
ted.evanoff@indystar.com
At the heart of Toyota's massive recall of 2.3 million vehicles for possible unexpected acceleration is a gas pedal made by an Indiana company.
Toyota Motor Corp. identified the supplier as Elkhart-based CTS Corp., which makes the gas pedal in Streetville, Ontario.
Toyota is telling the government that it thinks a friction problem in its accelerator pedal mechanisms may make the pedal "harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."
CTS on Wednesday issued a statement saying the pedals were made to Toyota's design and now that design is being beefed up.
But industry analysts say the recall more likely reflects a flaw in the electronics that control the modern engine.
Over the past decade, carmakers have done away with the old mechanical linkages in many midpriced autos. Instead, they've used electronic circuits that pulse information from the car pedal to sensors around the engine, said John Wolkonowicz, auto analyst at market researcher IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Mass.
Industry analysts say these so-called drive-by-wire systems may be the root of the Toyota problem rather than the actual pedal.
"Other carmakers won't laugh at Toyota over this," Wolkonowicz said. "Drive-by-wire systems are getting common."
CTS, once a major telephone supplier that turned to automotive electronics in recent decades, said in its statement that it has been working with Toyota "to develop a new pedal to meet tougher specifications from Toyota."
"The newly designed pedal is now tested, and parts are beginning to ship to some Toyota factories," the statement says.
Toyota and CTS officials did not return calls seeking comment. It is not clear how long it could take to replace pedals in 2.3 million existing vehicles and supply new pedals for the vehicle assembly plants.
Skip Walters, general manager for new vehicle sales at O'Brien Toyota in Indianapolis, said he knows of no vehicles that have come in for repairs related to unintended acceleration.
CTS' head of investor relations, Mitchell Walorski, earlier told The Wall Street Journal that Toyota had said it knew of eight incidents.
However, The Journal reported Safety Research and Strategies, a research firm in Rehoboth, Mass., had identified 2,274 incidents of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles.
Safety Research, headed by former Center for Auto Safety researcher Sean Kane, said these incidents had resulted in 275 crashes and at least 18 fatalities since 1999, according to The Journal.
The Elkhart company, which employs about 4,500 workers worldwide, said Toyota accounts for about 3 percent of its sales volume. CTS began supplying the automaker with gas pedals in 2005.
CTS supplies similar parts for Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co. and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. The three automakers said they had received no complaints about their accelerator pedals.
But auto suppliers typically design parts based on the specifications of the individual automaker, and a part's installation and operation can vary based on the vehicle.
CTS' stock price closed Wednesday at $8.42, a decline of 21 cents, or 2.4 percent.
On Tuesday, Toyota announced it would suspend production of eight models until a solution for the brake problem is in place. The eight include three vehicles made in Indiana at Lafayette and Princeton: the Camry sedan, Highlander sport utility vehicle and Sequoia SUV.
The suspension followed last week's recall of the same models. It follows a November decision to replace or reshape gas pedals in 3.8 million vehicles. At that time, Toyota also said it would put brake override systems on Camry, Avalon and Lexus models.
CTS said its products were not implicated in last year's recall by Toyota.
This year, Toyota said the recall and sales suspension involve these models: 2007-10 Camrys, 2009-10 Corollas, 2009-10 RAV4s, 2009-10 Matrixes, 2005-10 Avalons, 2010 Highlanders, 2007-10 Tundras and 2008-10 Sequoias.
Additional Facts
About CTS Corp.
» What: Designer and manufacturer of electronic components and sensors for automotive, computer, communications, medical, defense and aerospace, and industrial markets.
» Ticker: CTS.
» Headquarters: Elkhart.
» History: Founded as Chicago Telephone Supply Co. in 1896 by A.J. and George Briggs, the company moved to Elkhart in 1902. CTS supplied General Motors and Ford for years and diversified in 1995, supplying throttle-position sensors for Toyota.
» Chief executive: Vinod M. Khilnani.
» Employees: About 4,500.
» Operations: Has production facilities in Arizona, California, Illinois, Indiana, New Hampshire and New Mexico, as well as in Ontario, Canada, China, Czech Republic, Mexico, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand and United Kingdom.
» 2008 net sales: $692 million.
Sources: CTS; Electronic Buyers News
Analysts hint problem behind recall lies with engine controls, not pedals
By Ted Evanoff
ted.evanoff@indystar.com
At the heart of Toyota's massive recall of 2.3 million vehicles for possible unexpected acceleration is a gas pedal made by an Indiana company.
Toyota Motor Corp. identified the supplier as Elkhart-based CTS Corp., which makes the gas pedal in Streetville, Ontario.
Toyota is telling the government that it thinks a friction problem in its accelerator pedal mechanisms may make the pedal "harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."
CTS on Wednesday issued a statement saying the pedals were made to Toyota's design and now that design is being beefed up.
But industry analysts say the recall more likely reflects a flaw in the electronics that control the modern engine.
Over the past decade, carmakers have done away with the old mechanical linkages in many midpriced autos. Instead, they've used electronic circuits that pulse information from the car pedal to sensors around the engine, said John Wolkonowicz, auto analyst at market researcher IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Mass.
Industry analysts say these so-called drive-by-wire systems may be the root of the Toyota problem rather than the actual pedal.
"Other carmakers won't laugh at Toyota over this," Wolkonowicz said. "Drive-by-wire systems are getting common."
CTS, once a major telephone supplier that turned to automotive electronics in recent decades, said in its statement that it has been working with Toyota "to develop a new pedal to meet tougher specifications from Toyota."
"The newly designed pedal is now tested, and parts are beginning to ship to some Toyota factories," the statement says.
Toyota and CTS officials did not return calls seeking comment. It is not clear how long it could take to replace pedals in 2.3 million existing vehicles and supply new pedals for the vehicle assembly plants.
Skip Walters, general manager for new vehicle sales at O'Brien Toyota in Indianapolis, said he knows of no vehicles that have come in for repairs related to unintended acceleration.
CTS' head of investor relations, Mitchell Walorski, earlier told The Wall Street Journal that Toyota had said it knew of eight incidents.
However, The Journal reported Safety Research and Strategies, a research firm in Rehoboth, Mass., had identified 2,274 incidents of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles.
Safety Research, headed by former Center for Auto Safety researcher Sean Kane, said these incidents had resulted in 275 crashes and at least 18 fatalities since 1999, according to The Journal.
The Elkhart company, which employs about 4,500 workers worldwide, said Toyota accounts for about 3 percent of its sales volume. CTS began supplying the automaker with gas pedals in 2005.
CTS supplies similar parts for Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co. and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. The three automakers said they had received no complaints about their accelerator pedals.
But auto suppliers typically design parts based on the specifications of the individual automaker, and a part's installation and operation can vary based on the vehicle.
CTS' stock price closed Wednesday at $8.42, a decline of 21 cents, or 2.4 percent.
On Tuesday, Toyota announced it would suspend production of eight models until a solution for the brake problem is in place. The eight include three vehicles made in Indiana at Lafayette and Princeton: the Camry sedan, Highlander sport utility vehicle and Sequoia SUV.
The suspension followed last week's recall of the same models. It follows a November decision to replace or reshape gas pedals in 3.8 million vehicles. At that time, Toyota also said it would put brake override systems on Camry, Avalon and Lexus models.
CTS said its products were not implicated in last year's recall by Toyota.
This year, Toyota said the recall and sales suspension involve these models: 2007-10 Camrys, 2009-10 Corollas, 2009-10 RAV4s, 2009-10 Matrixes, 2005-10 Avalons, 2010 Highlanders, 2007-10 Tundras and 2008-10 Sequoias.
Additional Facts
About CTS Corp.
» What: Designer and manufacturer of electronic components and sensors for automotive, computer, communications, medical, defense and aerospace, and industrial markets.
» Ticker: CTS.
» Headquarters: Elkhart.
» History: Founded as Chicago Telephone Supply Co. in 1896 by A.J. and George Briggs, the company moved to Elkhart in 1902. CTS supplied General Motors and Ford for years and diversified in 1995, supplying throttle-position sensors for Toyota.
» Chief executive: Vinod M. Khilnani.
» Employees: About 4,500.
» Operations: Has production facilities in Arizona, California, Illinois, Indiana, New Hampshire and New Mexico, as well as in Ontario, Canada, China, Czech Republic, Mexico, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand and United Kingdom.
» 2008 net sales: $692 million.
Sources: CTS; Electronic Buyers News
01-28-2010, 09:08 AM
#2
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Location: North of Cincy
Posts: 824
This may be the actual cause. However, something just doesn't feel right, does it? I'm not a big fan of Drive-by-wire. I have it on a Honda and it does fine for most driving yet, there are times it's touchy or passive with the same pedal travel.
01-28-2010, 09:19 AM
#5
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Location: Toronto, ON Canada
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What did I say before? Toyota will blame this or that, and while they get you in for a faux repair, they'll reflash your PCM or replace it. But they'll insist that the problem is the gas pedal, and not their programming. So it's convenient to blame the supplier/manufacturer of gas pedals, thus shifting the blame away from themselves.
POS company.
P.S. They also stated in one of the articles that they're adding accelerator pedal override to their software, but rest assured, it's just a precaution, because the problem is the gas pedal.
POS company.
P.S. They also stated in one of the articles that they're adding accelerator pedal override to their software, but rest assured, it's just a precaution, because the problem is the gas pedal.
01-28-2010, 09:27 AM
#6
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Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Posts: 2,402
I think it just needs to be implemented right.
I think my Mazda3 has it too, it also works well, but it is a manual.
What drive-by-wire seems to have reduced is the lag you feel with MAF and mechanical throttle in hot weather. Used to irritate me beyond belief in my Camaro Z28. In the summer, when the car is cool, it responds to input in accelerator in split-second. After it warms up, it bogs down.
01-28-2010, 09:27 AM
#7
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Location: Middle of Kansas
Posts: 2,688
I agree, I am not a fan of drive-by-wire either, I prefer a mechanical setup.
01-28-2010, 09:32 AM
#8
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Location: Coppell, Texas
Posts: 1,215
What did I say before? Toyota will blame this or that, and while they get you in for a faux repair, they'll reflash your PCM or replace it. But they'll insist that the problem is the gas pedal, and not their programming. So it's convenient to blame the supplier/manufacturer of gas pedals, thus shifting the blame away from themselves.
POS company.
P.S. They also stated in one of the articles that they're adding accelerator pedal override to their software, but rest assured, it's just a precaution, because the problem is the gas pedal.
POS company.
P.S. They also stated in one of the articles that they're adding accelerator pedal override to their software, but rest assured, it's just a precaution, because the problem is the gas pedal.
01-28-2010, 11:00 AM
#9
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,712
As for drive by wire itself (as I've said before), I think it likely has fewer failures than a mechanical connection. Mechanical cables freeze, fray, kink, and break ... drive by wire does none of that. When you think of all the things in our cars controlled solely by computer, drive by wire is just one of them that could have potential for disastrous failure.
01-28-2010, 11:17 AM
#10
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
?
Given Elkhart/CTS make essentially the same systems for other car makers without there being reports of unintended acceleration, I'm not so sure. I'm not sure what the "beefed up" components statement in the article refers to unless it refers to springs/solenoids. I think there could be a far more open explanation of the redesign forthcoming.
Hmmmm!
BTW, does anybody recall when Mitsubishi were guilty of a multitude of cover-ups that emanated from owner's complaints, not so long ago? I hope it's not a Japanese tradition among Japan's car industry.
01-28-2010, 11:33 AM
#11
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 3,650
Anyway, I think just about all new GM vehicles are drive by wire. The Corvette LS1 was among the first to get it (and I think the 6.5L turbo diesel in the GMT400 pickups may have been the absolute first in their lineup). It is a very, very common feature these days.
The software and hardware that goes into it, at least the GM setup, is quite complex. There are redundant sensors, which are checked against each other, to monitor throttle position. They go through great pains to make sure that unintended acceleration is basically impossible, including designing appropriate failure modes and default actions into the system.
Last edited by 96_Camaro_B4C; 01-28-2010 at 11:35 AM.
01-28-2010, 02:31 PM
#12
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I don't care WHO designed the part or WHO built the part. It is 99% TOYOTA's fault.
1) If the design is Toyotas, and the supplier made it to spec- By supplying the design, Toyota is responsible for the failure mode analysis.
2) If the design is CTS's, then Toyota must research CTS's design and failure mode analysis and make sure it is up to snuff. If it isnt up to snuff then they should not have used that supplier.
3) Regardless of design, if the part was not made to spec, it is up to Toyota to determine the inspection process to prove parts are within spec and hold CTS to that process.
Exception:
CTS ignored the inspection process or falsified data.
Also, this issue appears to have spread to beyond US vehicles. If that is true, the issue is not caused solely by the pedal.
1) If the design is Toyotas, and the supplier made it to spec- By supplying the design, Toyota is responsible for the failure mode analysis.
2) If the design is CTS's, then Toyota must research CTS's design and failure mode analysis and make sure it is up to snuff. If it isnt up to snuff then they should not have used that supplier.
3) Regardless of design, if the part was not made to spec, it is up to Toyota to determine the inspection process to prove parts are within spec and hold CTS to that process.
Exception:
CTS ignored the inspection process or falsified data.
Also, this issue appears to have spread to beyond US vehicles. If that is true, the issue is not caused solely by the pedal.
01-28-2010, 02:50 PM
#13
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01-28-2010, 05:10 PM
#14
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
I just read on GMI that Denso manufacture the pedals for Toyota's European models, and not CTS.
I think Toyota might owe CTS an apology, not to mention the families of loved ones... from impending civil cases...
I think Toyota might owe CTS an apology, not to mention the families of loved ones... from impending civil cases...
01-28-2010, 05:14 PM
#15
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Location: South Bend , IN
Posts: 2,801
I don't care WHO designed the part or WHO built the part. It is 99% TOYOTA's fault.
1) If the design is Toyotas, and the supplier made it to spec- By supplying the design, Toyota is responsible for the failure mode analysis.
2) If the design is CTS's, then Toyota must research CTS's design and failure mode analysis and make sure it is up to snuff. If it isnt up to snuff then they should not have used that supplier.
3) Regardless of design, if the part was not made to spec, it is up to Toyota to determine the inspection process to prove parts are within spec and hold CTS to that process.
Exception:
CTS ignored the inspection process or falsified data.
Also, this issue appears to have spread to beyond US vehicles. If that is true, the issue is not caused solely by the pedal.
1) If the design is Toyotas, and the supplier made it to spec- By supplying the design, Toyota is responsible for the failure mode analysis.
2) If the design is CTS's, then Toyota must research CTS's design and failure mode analysis and make sure it is up to snuff. If it isnt up to snuff then they should not have used that supplier.
3) Regardless of design, if the part was not made to spec, it is up to Toyota to determine the inspection process to prove parts are within spec and hold CTS to that process.
Exception:
CTS ignored the inspection process or falsified data.
Also, this issue appears to have spread to beyond US vehicles. If that is true, the issue is not caused solely by the pedal.
I doubt it was failure on CTS's part on the inspection/anylasis . I work in Elkhart and my company is a supplier for CTS . Their quality and inspection requirements are quite extensive . At the end of the day , even if CTS designed this pedal assembly for Toyota , I 1 million % garantee it was done with extensive involvement with Toyota engineers and Quality Control personel .
Toyota just needs to man up without pointing fingers , tell the real truth , fix the damn cars *for REAL* this time and move the hell on . NO other manufacturer is having this problem with DBW pedals and almost all cars made now are DBW . Hopefully they screw the people who got the floormat recall and the reshaped pedal out of the current recal ....I dont see the ES350 , IS250/350 in the current recal notice and they have the same problem regarless of what Toyota wants to say in the press .