Buick's "Thuper" Cars
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Hmm....Quality?
J.D. Power and Associates' 2006 Assembly Plant Quality study gave the Oshawa #2 plant, home of Buick LaCrosse, its Gold award.
J.D. Power and Associates' 2005 Assembly Plant Quality study found Buick parent company General Motors to have swept the top three positions of eighty-four manufacturing plants in North and South America. The Silver award in Assembly Plant Quality belonged to Oshawa #2.
Moreover, in results released June 1st, 2006, the 2006 Harbour Report has found Oshawa #2 to be the second-most productive plant in North America. Ron Harbour, president of Harbour Consulting, noted that GM's steady improvement in the annual Harbour Report results over the years "has been driven by its plant quality improvements, reducing repair and overtime and thereby labor content in every car and truck." Buick's excellent performance is further proof that continuous improvement is part of its culture.
Oshawa #2 has been in operation since 1953.
Meanwhile, among Toyota/ Lexus' competitors to the LaCrosse, the Avalon, has suffered from bad U-joint welds; faulty catalytic converters; a leak in the oil-supply line for the variable valve timing; vehicle drifting; rattling; abrupt shifting, and engine knocks (per this article from Automotive News).
This, atop Toyota recalls in 2006 of more than one million vehicles globally for items such as flanges (whose lack of durability could cause wheels to fall off); for faulty intermediate steering shafts, and for sliding yokes. U.S. recalls of Toyota cars and trucks rose more than tenfold from 2003 to 2005, to more than 2.2 million vehicles - including a recall for a steering relay rod which could crack under extreme steering maneuvers.
Toyota Avalon owner Kevin Clingenpeel writes, "I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valvetrain clicking louder than his valvetrain." Clingenpeel adds that neither Toyota nor its dealers have been forthcoming about the problems.
Indeed, for its part, Toyota appears overwhelmed by the complexity of the luxury car category. "The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," says Toyota spokesman John Hanson ('Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for problematic vehicles,' Automotive News, May 1st, 2006).
Avalon owner Alan Seider, a Toyota driver since 1982, is quoted in the article as saying, "Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do." Seider indicates that his 2006 Avalon will likely be his last Toyota.
"Seider is far from alone," qualifies Automotive News, explaining that "Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon..." ('Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for problematic vehicles,' Automotive News, May 1st, 2006)
Mind you, Mark Phelan of the Detroit Free Press noticed problems with the Avalon as far back as March 24th, 2005. "Pieces are not supposed to fall off new cars. Particularly not new Toyotas. That's the reason people buy Toyotas. The company's mission statement is practically the pieces stay where we put them," Phelan started out.
"Mission not accomplished," he concluded of the $34,629 Avalon XLS he was testing, finding "several quality defects - including a dial that fell out and left a hole in the dashboard - leaving it trailing the competition.
"The dial to adjust the brightness of the instrument panel lights fell out of the dashboard the first time I touched it. The result was a hole the size of your index finger and the certainty of a visit to the service department.
"The ceiling-mounted buttons for the front dome lights squeaked, and they were made of what felt like the thinnest, cheapest plastic I can ever recall in a Toyota.
"The spring-loaded drawer that holds the controls for the navigation system never came all the way open on its own, and several pieces of colored trim on the dash and doors did not quite align."
Product is king, except when it is not, and it is stereotyped for other reasons (see our FAQ section for information on the perception gap). Test-drive a Buick LaCrosse, and we predict you might be still further convinced that this is not a good time for a Toyota Avalon's dashboard to be coming off in its driver's hands.
As we write this, Toyota is recalling the 2007 Toyota Camry - less than a month after its launch - for its transmission's tendency to lose two gears during operation, thanks to a fastener within the transmission potentially coming loose in the first 500 miles of operation.
Moreover - Toyota appears to have recalled just 150 of the 5,800 Camrys equipped with the fastener, generally treating the problem with a technical-service bulletin sent to dealers. In this way, the company stays under the recall radar.
What of Camry owners? "As a result, owners must wait for the transmission to fail before it can be repaired under warranty," writes Automotive News ('Bad transmission fastener can lead to limping '07 Toyota Camry,' Automotive News, May 1st, 2006 - read article).
As for Honda and its premium Acura brand? Says Satisfaction: How Every Great Company Listens to the Voice of the Customer coauthor Chris Denove, "Honda recently had transmission problems, but it got a pass because people expect Hondas to have good quality" (Detroit Free Press, April 10th, 2006).
That's a perception gap. As defined at some length in our FAQ section, it helps neither the consumer, nor the industry - an industry which Buick has repeatedly led in quality, in J.D. Power independent studies, since 1989.
J.D. Power and Associates' 2005 Assembly Plant Quality study found Buick parent company General Motors to have swept the top three positions of eighty-four manufacturing plants in North and South America. The Silver award in Assembly Plant Quality belonged to Oshawa #2.
Moreover, in results released June 1st, 2006, the 2006 Harbour Report has found Oshawa #2 to be the second-most productive plant in North America. Ron Harbour, president of Harbour Consulting, noted that GM's steady improvement in the annual Harbour Report results over the years "has been driven by its plant quality improvements, reducing repair and overtime and thereby labor content in every car and truck." Buick's excellent performance is further proof that continuous improvement is part of its culture.
Oshawa #2 has been in operation since 1953.
Meanwhile, among Toyota/ Lexus' competitors to the LaCrosse, the Avalon, has suffered from bad U-joint welds; faulty catalytic converters; a leak in the oil-supply line for the variable valve timing; vehicle drifting; rattling; abrupt shifting, and engine knocks (per this article from Automotive News).
This, atop Toyota recalls in 2006 of more than one million vehicles globally for items such as flanges (whose lack of durability could cause wheels to fall off); for faulty intermediate steering shafts, and for sliding yokes. U.S. recalls of Toyota cars and trucks rose more than tenfold from 2003 to 2005, to more than 2.2 million vehicles - including a recall for a steering relay rod which could crack under extreme steering maneuvers.
Toyota Avalon owner Kevin Clingenpeel writes, "I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valvetrain clicking louder than his valvetrain." Clingenpeel adds that neither Toyota nor its dealers have been forthcoming about the problems.
Indeed, for its part, Toyota appears overwhelmed by the complexity of the luxury car category. "The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," says Toyota spokesman John Hanson ('Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for problematic vehicles,' Automotive News, May 1st, 2006).
Avalon owner Alan Seider, a Toyota driver since 1982, is quoted in the article as saying, "Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do." Seider indicates that his 2006 Avalon will likely be his last Toyota.
"Seider is far from alone," qualifies Automotive News, explaining that "Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon..." ('Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for problematic vehicles,' Automotive News, May 1st, 2006)
Mind you, Mark Phelan of the Detroit Free Press noticed problems with the Avalon as far back as March 24th, 2005. "Pieces are not supposed to fall off new cars. Particularly not new Toyotas. That's the reason people buy Toyotas. The company's mission statement is practically the pieces stay where we put them," Phelan started out.
"Mission not accomplished," he concluded of the $34,629 Avalon XLS he was testing, finding "several quality defects - including a dial that fell out and left a hole in the dashboard - leaving it trailing the competition.
"The dial to adjust the brightness of the instrument panel lights fell out of the dashboard the first time I touched it. The result was a hole the size of your index finger and the certainty of a visit to the service department.
"The ceiling-mounted buttons for the front dome lights squeaked, and they were made of what felt like the thinnest, cheapest plastic I can ever recall in a Toyota.
"The spring-loaded drawer that holds the controls for the navigation system never came all the way open on its own, and several pieces of colored trim on the dash and doors did not quite align."
Product is king, except when it is not, and it is stereotyped for other reasons (see our FAQ section for information on the perception gap). Test-drive a Buick LaCrosse, and we predict you might be still further convinced that this is not a good time for a Toyota Avalon's dashboard to be coming off in its driver's hands.
As we write this, Toyota is recalling the 2007 Toyota Camry - less than a month after its launch - for its transmission's tendency to lose two gears during operation, thanks to a fastener within the transmission potentially coming loose in the first 500 miles of operation.
Moreover - Toyota appears to have recalled just 150 of the 5,800 Camrys equipped with the fastener, generally treating the problem with a technical-service bulletin sent to dealers. In this way, the company stays under the recall radar.
What of Camry owners? "As a result, owners must wait for the transmission to fail before it can be repaired under warranty," writes Automotive News ('Bad transmission fastener can lead to limping '07 Toyota Camry,' Automotive News, May 1st, 2006 - read article).
As for Honda and its premium Acura brand? Says Satisfaction: How Every Great Company Listens to the Voice of the Customer coauthor Chris Denove, "Honda recently had transmission problems, but it got a pass because people expect Hondas to have good quality" (Detroit Free Press, April 10th, 2006).
That's a perception gap. As defined at some length in our FAQ section, it helps neither the consumer, nor the industry - an industry which Buick has repeatedly led in quality, in J.D. Power independent studies, since 1989.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Lacrosse was a near miss. It got all the basics right, quality, ergonomics,right interior design. But it's design was way too familiar. It looked like a 97 Lexus GS (I've likened it to an updated 2000 Taurus), so it was old before the 1st model was made.
Lucerne is much better because it has even better assembly, the excellent chassis is an upgraded version based on Cadillac's G chassis, and it has much better styling. It's the closest thing GM has to the 300. With the Caddy V8, the Lucerne even has some serious grunt.
The Supers are good moves. Keep in mind, Buicks aren't aimed at us, and you're in for permanent dissappointment if you're rallying for the return of the Grand National or cars like that.
Buick is aiming at buyers who deserted them for Lexus & Acura in the 90s. That many of us here like the Lucerne is a minor miracle for GM, and shows they are going in the right direction. Buyick Supers are for 50 somethings who take long trips and want cars that can actually move down the freeway.
Lucerne is much better because it has even better assembly, the excellent chassis is an upgraded version based on Cadillac's G chassis, and it has much better styling. It's the closest thing GM has to the 300. With the Caddy V8, the Lucerne even has some serious grunt.
The Supers are good moves. Keep in mind, Buicks aren't aimed at us, and you're in for permanent dissappointment if you're rallying for the return of the Grand National or cars like that.
Buick is aiming at buyers who deserted them for Lexus & Acura in the 90s. That many of us here like the Lucerne is a minor miracle for GM, and shows they are going in the right direction. Buyick Supers are for 50 somethings who take long trips and want cars that can actually move down the freeway.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
I guess I must be an anomalie, not quite 40 yet and I like Buick.
I'll admit from a "subjective" styling point of view, the Lacrosse is understated and could be brought more up to date, appearance wise.
But the Lucerne definitely peaks interests of slightly younger buyers.
Again the sportier stance and wheels do wonders for the "granny" perception.
All in all, Buick's not down for the count, as many would have everyone believe.
I'll admit from a "subjective" styling point of view, the Lacrosse is understated and could be brought more up to date, appearance wise.
But the Lucerne definitely peaks interests of slightly younger buyers.
Again the sportier stance and wheels do wonders for the "granny" perception.
All in all, Buick's not down for the count, as many would have everyone believe.
Registered User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,018
Where do you get this information, and have you had your head up your *** the last 10-15 years? I don't really mean this as a personal shot at you, but in the world of cars, Buick is not doing much that is revolutionary.
...VVT
...electric steering
...ESP (electronic stability)
...and multilink suspensions
...auto down windows
...theatre dimming
...heated outside mirrors
...auto lock doors at 15mph
...sattellite radio
...9 speaker stereo system
...keyless entry
...dual zone climate control
...outside temp display
...mpg calculator
...a power sunroof? (is it like the one on the impala that doesn't open all the way and flips out over the roof?
Go jump into a 1996 Audi A4 and tell me which of the features it doesn't have (except for VVT...they had a 1.8T motor, and not sure if ESP was around then, but it probably had at least traction control. Better yet, find me an American car that had all these options from that era.
Since I own a VW...I'll cue you into some of the unique features that have been mostly standard equipment for some time ok, for a long time) on many models: (NOTE: yes, some of these are available on GM cars, esp high end brands (Cadillac, GMC trucks, and select models from other GM makes). BUT...You won't find most of these on a $30k Chevy, Buick, or Pontiac, especially from the last 10 years. I will concede to say that as of late, they are catching on, but not there yet!
...rain sensing wipers
...ambient interior LED lighting
...10 and 12-way manual or power adjustable seats
...crash active head restraints (not just the GM "pillow")
...heated seats
...headlamp washers
...freeze temp warning
...trip duration warning (2:00 hour "break" warning)
...auto down windows for all 4! windows in the car.
...windows down on driver's door unlock w/ key
...variable park wipers that prevent freezing and wiper blade wear
...auto-level bi-xenon headlamps
...remote fuel door release
...side curtain airbags, side airbags, and rear-side thorax airbags
...full size spare tires
...full time illuminated lock switches
...auto wipe of rear wiper (if equipped) while raining and shift into reverse
...auto hazard flash on hard braking.
...integrated key and remote
...cooled glove box and center console
...pass through rear seat (with locks!)
...center ski boot pass through
...many cars equipped w/ first aid kit stored in rear seat
...auto dimming side and rearview mirror
...tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS)
...auto service indicators
...DSG (4-speed auto: say whaa?)
...and these are not just available on VW cars. MOST of these options are available on VW's and Audi's "under $30k" lineup.
GM has...hmm...two technological advances for it that are nice ideas: OnStar (blonde-star?) and remote start. I don't get the remote start though...wastes gas and is bad to let the car idle while it warms up.
You can find articles--good and bad--on any kind of car. Rather than look at written, subjective praise, look at sales trends and that will tell you what people are wanting.
Maybe the LaX is a better car than the Camry...I think they both suck! Some Buicks are great cars, and so are some Toyotas, but each have thier problems.
Once again, my point with the last thread: Buick is not doing anything revolutionary with it's current model lineup.
...VVT
...electric steering
...ESP (electronic stability)
...and multilink suspensions
...auto down windows
...theatre dimming
...heated outside mirrors
...auto lock doors at 15mph
...sattellite radio
...9 speaker stereo system
...keyless entry
...dual zone climate control
...outside temp display
...mpg calculator
...a power sunroof? (is it like the one on the impala that doesn't open all the way and flips out over the roof?
Go jump into a 1996 Audi A4 and tell me which of the features it doesn't have (except for VVT...they had a 1.8T motor, and not sure if ESP was around then, but it probably had at least traction control. Better yet, find me an American car that had all these options from that era.
Since I own a VW...I'll cue you into some of the unique features that have been mostly standard equipment for some time ok, for a long time) on many models: (NOTE: yes, some of these are available on GM cars, esp high end brands (Cadillac, GMC trucks, and select models from other GM makes). BUT...You won't find most of these on a $30k Chevy, Buick, or Pontiac, especially from the last 10 years. I will concede to say that as of late, they are catching on, but not there yet!
...rain sensing wipers
...ambient interior LED lighting
...10 and 12-way manual or power adjustable seats
...crash active head restraints (not just the GM "pillow")
...heated seats
...headlamp washers
...freeze temp warning
...trip duration warning (2:00 hour "break" warning)
...auto down windows for all 4! windows in the car.
...windows down on driver's door unlock w/ key
...variable park wipers that prevent freezing and wiper blade wear
...auto-level bi-xenon headlamps
...remote fuel door release
...side curtain airbags, side airbags, and rear-side thorax airbags
...full size spare tires
...full time illuminated lock switches
...auto wipe of rear wiper (if equipped) while raining and shift into reverse
...auto hazard flash on hard braking.
...integrated key and remote
...cooled glove box and center console
...pass through rear seat (with locks!)
...center ski boot pass through
...many cars equipped w/ first aid kit stored in rear seat
...auto dimming side and rearview mirror
...tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS)
...auto service indicators
...DSG (4-speed auto: say whaa?)
...and these are not just available on VW cars. MOST of these options are available on VW's and Audi's "under $30k" lineup.
GM has...hmm...two technological advances for it that are nice ideas: OnStar (blonde-star?) and remote start. I don't get the remote start though...wastes gas and is bad to let the car idle while it warms up.
You can find articles--good and bad--on any kind of car. Rather than look at written, subjective praise, look at sales trends and that will tell you what people are wanting.
Maybe the LaX is a better car than the Camry...I think they both suck! Some Buicks are great cars, and so are some Toyotas, but each have thier problems.
Once again, my point with the last thread: Buick is not doing anything revolutionary with it's current model lineup.
Last edited by 97QuasarBlue3.8; Apr 6, 2007 at 01:48 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Ok....
Some of Buick sub-$30K features:
-Air filtration
-Assist(grab) handles
-cargo net
-programmable power door locks with lock-out protection and enhanced safety
-child security rear doors
-Driver info center and compass(w/trip/milage/tire monitor etc)
-pass key 3 theft deterent
-factory installed content alarm
-latch system anchors for child seats
-highway emergency kits
-fog lamps
-switchable DTR
-vent visors
-molded splash guards
-contour splah guards
-integrated spoiler kits
-17" painted or chrome wheels
-compact spare, which is all that's neccessary taking up less space.
-ultrasonic rear parking assist
-body colored heated power mirrors
-dual note horns
-6 way power seat w/2way power lumbar
-seating up to 6 passengers
-front and rear arm reasts w/dual cup holders
-universal home remote garage door opener
-steering wheel mounted audio controls
-steering wheel mounted cruise controls
-auto dimming rear view mirror
-dual zone climate controls
-load leveling
A LOT of which is on my (OLD)1996 Park Ave, including $500ea. magnetic dynamic variable struts.
You might want to look closer at those "boring" Buicks...there's A LOT more than meets the eye.
Some of Buick sub-$30K features:
-Air filtration
-Assist(grab) handles
-cargo net
-programmable power door locks with lock-out protection and enhanced safety
-child security rear doors
-Driver info center and compass(w/trip/milage/tire monitor etc)
-pass key 3 theft deterent
-factory installed content alarm
-latch system anchors for child seats
-highway emergency kits
-fog lamps
-switchable DTR
-vent visors
-molded splash guards
-contour splah guards
-integrated spoiler kits
-17" painted or chrome wheels
-compact spare, which is all that's neccessary taking up less space.
-ultrasonic rear parking assist
-body colored heated power mirrors
-dual note horns
-6 way power seat w/2way power lumbar
-seating up to 6 passengers
-front and rear arm reasts w/dual cup holders
-universal home remote garage door opener
-steering wheel mounted audio controls
-steering wheel mounted cruise controls
-auto dimming rear view mirror
-dual zone climate controls
-load leveling
A LOT of which is on my (OLD)1996 Park Ave, including $500ea. magnetic dynamic variable struts.
You might want to look closer at those "boring" Buicks...there's A LOT more than meets the eye.
Last edited by 90rocz; Apr 6, 2007 at 10:09 PM.
Registered User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,018
I think the thread is totally hijacked at this point...lol
Remote start is a driver comfort option. Remote start is not so you can save time warming up your car--it's so you can start the car, waste gas, and heat or cool the inside as necessary before you get in.
Modern engines do not need a warm up period, other than a second or two after start to circulate oil. It's recommended that the best warmups are in motion--gentle driving until the engine reaches operating temp.
Modern controls are pretty good, but cold cat converters allow more pollution, and idle warmups take longer than warmups in motion. Takes them longer to warm when the car is just sitting.
Also, more fuel is released causing the car to run richer. So, not much impact to your car other than wear and tear (a moving engine is wearing), but a huge impact to the environment.
Don't try to warm up a VW Jetta TDI...they won't actually reach operating temperature unless they're in motion. I think most diesels run cold this way, but the TDI is known for exceptional efficiency.
Remote start is a driver comfort option. Remote start is not so you can save time warming up your car--it's so you can start the car, waste gas, and heat or cool the inside as necessary before you get in.
Modern engines do not need a warm up period, other than a second or two after start to circulate oil. It's recommended that the best warmups are in motion--gentle driving until the engine reaches operating temp.
Modern controls are pretty good, but cold cat converters allow more pollution, and idle warmups take longer than warmups in motion. Takes them longer to warm when the car is just sitting.
Also, more fuel is released causing the car to run richer. So, not much impact to your car other than wear and tear (a moving engine is wearing), but a huge impact to the environment.
Don't try to warm up a VW Jetta TDI...they won't actually reach operating temperature unless they're in motion. I think most diesels run cold this way, but the TDI is known for exceptional efficiency.
Registered User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,018
Ok....
Some of Buick sub-$30K features:
-Air filtration
-Assist(grab) handles
-cargo net
-programmable power door locks with lock-out protection and enhanced safety
-child security rear doors
-Driver info center and compass(w/trip/milage/tire monitor etc)
-pass key 3 theft deterent
-factory installed content alarm
-latch system anchors for child seats
-highway emergency kits
-fog lamps
-switchable DTR
-vent visors
-molded splash guards
-contour splah guards
-integrated spoiler kits
-17" painted or chrome wheels
-compact spare, which is all that's neccessary taking up less space.
-ultrasonic rear parking assist
-body colored heated power mirrors
-dual note horns
-6 way power seat w/2way power lumbar
-seating up to 6 passengers
-front and rear arm reasts w/dual cup holders
-universal home remote garage door opener
-steering wheel mounted audio controls
-auto dimming rear view mirror
-dual zone climate controls
-load leveling
A LOT of which is on my (OLD)1996 Park Ave, including $500ea. magnetic dynamic variable struts.
You might want to look closer at those "boring" Buicks...there's A LOT more than meets the eye.
Some of Buick sub-$30K features:
-Air filtration
-Assist(grab) handles
-cargo net
-programmable power door locks with lock-out protection and enhanced safety
-child security rear doors
-Driver info center and compass(w/trip/milage/tire monitor etc)
-pass key 3 theft deterent
-factory installed content alarm
-latch system anchors for child seats
-highway emergency kits
-fog lamps
-switchable DTR
-vent visors
-molded splash guards
-contour splah guards
-integrated spoiler kits
-17" painted or chrome wheels
-compact spare, which is all that's neccessary taking up less space.
-ultrasonic rear parking assist
-body colored heated power mirrors
-dual note horns
-6 way power seat w/2way power lumbar
-seating up to 6 passengers
-front and rear arm reasts w/dual cup holders
-universal home remote garage door opener
-steering wheel mounted audio controls
-auto dimming rear view mirror
-dual zone climate controls
-load leveling
A LOT of which is on my (OLD)1996 Park Ave, including $500ea. magnetic dynamic variable struts.
You might want to look closer at those "boring" Buicks...there's A LOT more than meets the eye.
I still don't understand why so manufacturers insist on putting a compact spare in the trunk on an almost 4,000lb car. The space savings are minimal, and I'd rather leave behind a lawn chair than risk a blowout on a donut going down a mountain pass.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
While a Buick may not be on the "cutting edge" as in the latest trend or fad, I think I've MORE than PROVEN they aren't near a waste of money, and not NEARLY as far behind the "Holy Grail" -Euro cars, or even the Japanese vehicles as many "believe"...and Euro-Japanese vehicles aren't as Holy as many believe.
I digress.
Carry on with the Buick bashing, viv le farfegnugen!
I digress.
Carry on with the Buick bashing, viv le farfegnugen!
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 3,252
From: Knoxville, TN
Modern engines do not need a warm up period, other than a second or two after start to circulate oil. It's recommended that the best warmups are in motion--gentle driving until the engine reaches operating temp.
Again - not saying that a remote start is there to warm the motor to reduce wear, only that warming the motor before driving it is NOT bad for the car. At all.
But I'd really like to hear who recommends that the best warmups are in motion.
Bob
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
A side comment, no argument, Buick built the GN cars with the hall-effect sensor set up so that it takes extra degrees of crankshaft rotation before it will start just to ensure no dry starts.(kinda pre-oiler)
About the other topic;
Driving any car cold wastes more gas than letting it warm up, b/c until the temp sensor sends a signal of being warmed up it will not run in "closed loop" and will run in a pre-programmed-cold, fuel enrichment state ignoring sensor input.
About the other topic;
Driving any car cold wastes more gas than letting it warm up, b/c until the temp sensor sends a signal of being warmed up it will not run in "closed loop" and will run in a pre-programmed-cold, fuel enrichment state ignoring sensor input.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Since I own a VW...I'll cue you into some of the unique features that have been mostly standard equipment for some time ok, for a long time) on many models: (NOTE: yes, some of these are available on GM cars, esp high end brands (Cadillac, GMC trucks, and select models from other GM makes). BUT...You won't find most of these on a $30k Chevy, Buick, or Pontiac, especially from the last 10 years. I will concede to say that as of late, they are catching on, but not there yet!
...rain sensing wipers
...ambient interior LED lighting
...10 and 12-way manual or power adjustable seats
...crash active head restraints (not just the GM "pillow")
...heated seats
...headlamp washers
...freeze temp warning
...trip duration warning (2:00 hour "break" warning)
...auto down windows for all 4! windows in the car.
...windows down on driver's door unlock w/ key
...variable park wipers that prevent freezing and wiper blade wear
...auto-level bi-xenon headlamps
...remote fuel door release
...side curtain airbags, side airbags, and rear-side thorax airbags
...full size spare tires
...full time illuminated lock switches
...auto wipe of rear wiper (if equipped) while raining and shift into reverse
...auto hazard flash on hard braking.
...integrated key and remote
...cooled glove box and center console
...pass through rear seat (with locks!)
...center ski boot pass through
...many cars equipped w/ first aid kit stored in rear seat
...auto dimming side and rearview mirror
...tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS)
...auto service indicators
...DSG (4-speed auto: say whaa?)
...and these are not just available on VW cars. MOST of these options are available on VW's and Audi's "under $30k" lineup.
GM has...hmm...two technological advances for it that are nice ideas: OnStar (blonde-star?) and remote start. I don't get the remote start though...wastes gas and is bad to let the car idle while it warms up.
...rain sensing wipers
...ambient interior LED lighting
...10 and 12-way manual or power adjustable seats
...crash active head restraints (not just the GM "pillow")
...heated seats
...headlamp washers
...freeze temp warning
...trip duration warning (2:00 hour "break" warning)
...auto down windows for all 4! windows in the car.
...windows down on driver's door unlock w/ key
...variable park wipers that prevent freezing and wiper blade wear
...auto-level bi-xenon headlamps
...remote fuel door release
...side curtain airbags, side airbags, and rear-side thorax airbags
...full size spare tires
...full time illuminated lock switches
...auto wipe of rear wiper (if equipped) while raining and shift into reverse
...auto hazard flash on hard braking.
...integrated key and remote
...cooled glove box and center console
...pass through rear seat (with locks!)
...center ski boot pass through
...many cars equipped w/ first aid kit stored in rear seat
...auto dimming side and rearview mirror
...tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS)
...auto service indicators
...DSG (4-speed auto: say whaa?)
...and these are not just available on VW cars. MOST of these options are available on VW's and Audi's "under $30k" lineup.
GM has...hmm...two technological advances for it that are nice ideas: OnStar (blonde-star?) and remote start. I don't get the remote start though...wastes gas and is bad to let the car idle while it warms up.
Everything underlined is pointless. I have had remote gas door button, and it always broke on every car. My Dads Taurus has a little light under the sideview mirror that lights up when you unlock, nice touch but...eh. Cooled glove box? What needs to be kept cool? My owners manual? insurance and registration?
My old 1987 Z28 had an auto diming rear view mirror.
VW does have a lot quirky things, but nothing that would ever entice me to buy one.
GM does have some cool things. They DIS in a lot of cars stores a lot of info including oil life monitor which comes in handy. Remote start from the factory is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!! And what I also noticed in all new GM cars is that you no longer have to hold the key to start the car. You just flick the key, and the starter will start the car. No need to hold it in position and wait for it to fire up. And, it also locks you out so you can't try to start the car while its on. I have not seen another car with that feature. I guess its built into the whole remote start thing. And the range on this thing is awesome as well.
OnStar is probably the best technology to enter the average car today. New OnStar can email you one day, telling you that your car or truck has low tire pressure, and then tell you which tire, and by how much PSI. They do monthly diagnostics to see what is going on with the car. It can also work with your navigation and update maps and routes for you as well. They can also make reservations with resturaunts, and then beem you the directions right to your navigation. And if you dont have navigation screen, there is Turn By Turn which will tell you where to go through your cars speakers. With XM NaviTraf, the unit is fantastic. I have even heard that OnStar can do a real-time update of engine software if you call them up with a complaint. Someone said that as they were driving, they had a vibration in the steering. They pushed the button, OnStar came on, reflashed the PCM, and the vibration went away. OnStar came back on, made sure things were ok, and they had a nice day. Not to mention all the other stuff OnStar provides from instant crash notification to unlocking your doors. OnStar is the trump card that no one else caries.
Registered User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,018
So, I just priced out one of your precious LaCrosse CX models:
Vehicle: Select New Vehicle
Vehicle: 2007 LaCrosse
Vehicle Trim:
Selected Trim: CX
Air conditioning: with rear-seat heating/cooling outlets
Audio system: AM/FM stereo with CD player, seek-scan, digital clock, auto tone control, automatic volume and TheftLock
Battery: 600-cca, includes rundown protection
Brakes: four-wheel antilock disc
Engine: 3.8L V6
Mirrors, outside: power-adjustable, body-colored
Monitor: Tire Pressure
Seating surfaces: Cloth
Seats: front, bucket; include head restraints, seatback map pockets, driver six-way power adjuster and passenger two-way manual adjuster
Steering column: Tilt-Wheel, adjustable
Steering wheel: four-spoke, includes mounted cruise controls
Steering: power rack-and-pinion
Suspension: Premium Ride
Traction Control: Enhanced
Transmission: four-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive
Wheels: 16-inch, steel with bolt-on wheel covers
Colors: Modify
Exterior: Stone Gray Metallic
Interior: Gray Cloth
Seat Type: Seats, , front bucket, includes 6-way power driver seat adjuster, 2-way manual front passenger seat adjuster with fore/aft controls, outboard head restraints, front seatback map pockets and rear armrest with dual cup holders
Options & Packages: Modify
Audio system, , AM/FM stereo with 6-disc in-dash CD changer, seek-and-scan, digital clock, speed-compensated volume and TheftLock. Includes (U88) Concert Sound III 9-speaker system $695.00
Instrumentation, with Driver Information Center and compass, 5-button includes language selection (English, Spanish and French), date, oil life monitor, odometer, driver warning messages, personalization features (door locks and interior/exterior lighting), reminder tones and analog instrumentation (speedometer, temperature, fuel, tachometer and trip odometer) $195.00
OnStar, , 1-year of Directions and Connections plan, . Includes the innovative easy to use Turn-by-Turn Navigation services which provide voice-guided directions (where available). Also includes Automatic Notification of Air Bag Deployment, Stolen Vehicle Location Assistance, Emergency Services, Roadside Assistance, Remote Door Unlock, OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics, Hands-Free Calling, AccidentAssist, Remote Horn and Lights, Information and Convenience Services, and Driving Directions No Charge
Option package discount No Charge
Regular production accessory, , Interior Protection Package, includes trunk liner and interior carpet saver package $145.00
Regular production accessory, , Spoiler, rear $275.00
Remote Keyless Entry, , extended-range, enables dealer-installed remote start system $30.00
Seat adjuster, , driver 2-way power lumbar $130.00
Seat, , rear split-folding, with armrest and dual cup holders $275.00
Sunroof, , power, tilt-sliding $995.00
Visor mirrors, lighted No Charge
Wheels, , 16" (40.6 cm) 8-spoke painted aluminum $350.00
XM Satellite Radio, . With a wide variety of programming, XM has something to excite any driver. Whether you want to be entertained or informed, to laugh, think, or sing, XM has the perfect channel for you - coast-to-coast, and in digital-quality sound. 3 trial months - no obligation $199.00
Pricing:
Base MSRP*: $23,100.00
Options Total: $3,289.00
Total MSRP*: Estimate Payment
Total MSRP*: $26,389.00
Hmm, except for remote start, auto trans, ($1,375 option for VW, but is DSG), and one year free onstar...
You can get a VW that has ALL that, plus:
17" wheels
bi-xenon auto level headlights
side curtain airbags
rear side thorax airbags (LaCrosse in current form = 1 star side impact...kids, anyone?)
6-disc in dash changer, MP3, aux-in, SAT, and TEN speaker stereo
Heated side mirrors
Headlamp washers
locking rear seats and trunk pass thru
...and a host of "over engineered features" including the driver's door lock--auto windows down/up and door unlock, variable park wipers, reverse assist w/ rear wiper, fuel door latch, remote trunk release (an actual button--illuminated, even!), integrated key/remote, grocery bag holders in the trunk, full size spare, and that really cool 2"x3" computer in the middle of the dash that tells you damn near everything about your car, plus speed and trip time warnings...not to mention LED turn signals on each mirror....I won't even go into the options that come standard on these cars in Europe. Too much to list.)
So, besides OnStar, remote start, and maybe a softer? ride...other mfr's offer quite a bit more for less. Concerned about space? Step into a Passat for about $2k more with even MORE features! Crazy, eh?
If you're still feeling pissed, I'll go to another MFR website and price a "similarly equipped" car for less.
Vehicle: Select New Vehicle
Vehicle: 2007 LaCrosse
Vehicle Trim:
Selected Trim: CX
Air conditioning: with rear-seat heating/cooling outlets
Audio system: AM/FM stereo with CD player, seek-scan, digital clock, auto tone control, automatic volume and TheftLock
Battery: 600-cca, includes rundown protection
Brakes: four-wheel antilock disc
Engine: 3.8L V6
Mirrors, outside: power-adjustable, body-colored
Monitor: Tire Pressure
Seating surfaces: Cloth
Seats: front, bucket; include head restraints, seatback map pockets, driver six-way power adjuster and passenger two-way manual adjuster
Steering column: Tilt-Wheel, adjustable
Steering wheel: four-spoke, includes mounted cruise controls
Steering: power rack-and-pinion
Suspension: Premium Ride
Traction Control: Enhanced
Transmission: four-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive
Wheels: 16-inch, steel with bolt-on wheel covers
Colors: Modify
Exterior: Stone Gray Metallic
Interior: Gray Cloth
Seat Type: Seats, , front bucket, includes 6-way power driver seat adjuster, 2-way manual front passenger seat adjuster with fore/aft controls, outboard head restraints, front seatback map pockets and rear armrest with dual cup holders
Options & Packages: Modify
Audio system, , AM/FM stereo with 6-disc in-dash CD changer, seek-and-scan, digital clock, speed-compensated volume and TheftLock. Includes (U88) Concert Sound III 9-speaker system $695.00
Instrumentation, with Driver Information Center and compass, 5-button includes language selection (English, Spanish and French), date, oil life monitor, odometer, driver warning messages, personalization features (door locks and interior/exterior lighting), reminder tones and analog instrumentation (speedometer, temperature, fuel, tachometer and trip odometer) $195.00
OnStar, , 1-year of Directions and Connections plan, . Includes the innovative easy to use Turn-by-Turn Navigation services which provide voice-guided directions (where available). Also includes Automatic Notification of Air Bag Deployment, Stolen Vehicle Location Assistance, Emergency Services, Roadside Assistance, Remote Door Unlock, OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics, Hands-Free Calling, AccidentAssist, Remote Horn and Lights, Information and Convenience Services, and Driving Directions No Charge
Option package discount No Charge
Regular production accessory, , Interior Protection Package, includes trunk liner and interior carpet saver package $145.00
Regular production accessory, , Spoiler, rear $275.00
Remote Keyless Entry, , extended-range, enables dealer-installed remote start system $30.00
Seat adjuster, , driver 2-way power lumbar $130.00
Seat, , rear split-folding, with armrest and dual cup holders $275.00
Sunroof, , power, tilt-sliding $995.00
Visor mirrors, lighted No Charge
Wheels, , 16" (40.6 cm) 8-spoke painted aluminum $350.00
XM Satellite Radio, . With a wide variety of programming, XM has something to excite any driver. Whether you want to be entertained or informed, to laugh, think, or sing, XM has the perfect channel for you - coast-to-coast, and in digital-quality sound. 3 trial months - no obligation $199.00
Pricing:
Base MSRP*: $23,100.00
Options Total: $3,289.00
Total MSRP*: Estimate Payment
Total MSRP*: $26,389.00
Hmm, except for remote start, auto trans, ($1,375 option for VW, but is DSG), and one year free onstar...
You can get a VW that has ALL that, plus:
17" wheels
bi-xenon auto level headlights
side curtain airbags
rear side thorax airbags (LaCrosse in current form = 1 star side impact...kids, anyone?)
6-disc in dash changer, MP3, aux-in, SAT, and TEN speaker stereo
Heated side mirrors
Headlamp washers
locking rear seats and trunk pass thru
...and a host of "over engineered features" including the driver's door lock--auto windows down/up and door unlock, variable park wipers, reverse assist w/ rear wiper, fuel door latch, remote trunk release (an actual button--illuminated, even!), integrated key/remote, grocery bag holders in the trunk, full size spare, and that really cool 2"x3" computer in the middle of the dash that tells you damn near everything about your car, plus speed and trip time warnings...not to mention LED turn signals on each mirror....I won't even go into the options that come standard on these cars in Europe. Too much to list.)
So, besides OnStar, remote start, and maybe a softer? ride...other mfr's offer quite a bit more for less. Concerned about space? Step into a Passat for about $2k more with even MORE features! Crazy, eh?
If you're still feeling pissed, I'll go to another MFR website and price a "similarly equipped" car for less.
Last edited by 97QuasarBlue3.8; Apr 6, 2007 at 11:23 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
LaX and Jetta are two very different cars. 26k for a compact car...thats pretty ballsy if you ask me.
Passat fully loaded can climb near 40k as well. You are comparing the worst car in GM's line up with a brand new overengineered German car.
Compare the Jetta with even the Epsilon cars, and its a bit more even. For 26k, you can get a very loaded Aura XR with all the stuff you listed down there for the exception of HID's and washers....and locking...rear...seats?
Passat fully loaded can climb near 40k as well. You are comparing the worst car in GM's line up with a brand new overengineered German car.
Compare the Jetta with even the Epsilon cars, and its a bit more even. For 26k, you can get a very loaded Aura XR with all the stuff you listed down there for the exception of HID's and washers....and locking...rear...seats?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Originally Posted by 97QuasarBlue3.8:
If you're still feeling pissed, I'll go to another MFR website and price a "similarly equipped" car for less.
If you're still feeling pissed, I'll go to another MFR website and price a "similarly equipped" car for less.
.See this thread:
"2006+ Volkswagen Jetta"
I'll stick with something proven to be more reliable for YEARS...Buick!
I also like how the VW site puts a "-" next to items in which that item is not listed, as if it's not available...like "Aluminum cylinder heads"..
I didn't want to post again, so I'll edit with my Old '95 Park Ave options just to let you see what Buick had 12 years ago;
Front to back;
-Supercharged(8psi) L67 3800 225hp/275lbft, broad useable powerband.
-Sequential Port Fuel injection
-105 Amp Alternator
-4 speed automatic electriconically controlled OD transmission(1700rpm@60mph)
-2 1/4" mandrel bent exhaust w/tubular headers
-oil and trans coolers
-dual electric cooling fans
-hot 3 coil DIS ignition system
-gas charged hood support struts(still good)
-fiberglass front fenders
-ABS plastic 2-tone lower body treatment
-wrap around chrome: molding, waterfall grille, hood ornament and badging
-tinted glass
-Dual airbags
-color coded floor mats front & rear
-wrap around molded trunk matting
-rear door ashtrays
-twighlight sentinel, auto headlight system
-delayed off headlights up to 3 minutes for lighting your walk path
-headlights on per remote after dark to light your walk path, until key is turned
-auto interior lights, until key is turned or timed out 3 minutes
-factory alarm system
-keyless entry w/trunk release
-traction control w/switch for burn outs
-ABS
-Dynaride road sensing computer controlled electromagetic struts @4-corners
-rear load leveling air bags integrated into strut
-square tube steel strut tower brace
-trunk cargo net
-auto trunk pull down latch
-front mounted air compressor for load leveling system
-4 dual tone horns
-variable rate coil springs
-variable rate rack & pinion steering
-lighted door lock surrounds
-steering wheel remote stereo controls
-stitched leather steering wheel
-all leather pillow top seating
-heated driver and passenger seats
-9-way adjustable driver and passenger seats(8-on the door 1 on the seatback)
-3 driver; seat and side view mirror position memory, key fob activated
-all push button digital dual climate control w/thermostat auto adjust
-rear seat heating/cooling
-full analog instrumentation w/trip od
-oil change reminder lamp
-remote gas and trunk releases, manual gas release in trunk
-power windows w/ auto driver window and driver lockout switch
-power side mirrors
-power door locks
-drivers side electrichromatic heated side view mirror
-electrichomatic rear view mirror w/digital compass and map lights
-lighted glove box
-rear reading lamps
-driver and passenger manual dimming lighted visor mirrors
-driver and passenger side window defrosters
-rear electric defroster
-low fuel warning light
-3rd mid-high mount brake light
-am/fm/cd/cassette w/6speaker concert II sound
-power antenna
-power moonroof with interior sliding cover
-front and rear armrests w/storage and dual cup holders
-leather seatback storage pouches
-rear seat headrests
-rear seat shoulder restraints with center lap restraint
-all passenger grab handles and rear hanger hooks
Buick safety?
My wife was rear ended on an off ramp @ between 60-65mph(her at a dead stop) in the rain by a midsize Ford, her in a '91 Regal. The trunk was pushed into the rear tires, but all 4 door still worked flawlessly. The rear crumpled, took the energy, and she walked away with some moderate whiplash. Thanks to Buick safety engineering!...
-
Last edited by 90rocz; Apr 8, 2007 at 02:33 AM.
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