FS3800

i'd totally sport a Regal GS.. in black please

99SilverSS

Kudos to Buick I've known people working for that brand and I tell they have teh right formula in place but just need some more exciting vehicles.. Enclave will help.

JakeRobb

4L60 and 4L60E are the rear-wheel-drive variants. You mean the 4T60 and 4T60E (not to mention the 4T65E).

routesixtysixer

I thought we were comparing to Lexus? i.e. ES330, GS300, etc. How many OHV engines with 4-speed trannies did Lexus sell in 2004?

JakeRobb

The number of transmission ratios and the location/orientation of the cam and valves has very little to do with how "futuristic" a car is. The first OHC engine was in a 1912 Fiat.

GM has been building 5-speed automatic transmissions since about 2001. They received a hefty chunk of money from BMW in exchange for not using it in any of their cars for three years. Lexus beat them to the punch by installing their 5-speed in the LS and GS in 1995 and 96, respectively, but whether the technology is six years old or twelve, it's hard to call it "futuristic".

On a semi-related note, the OHV engine was invented by none other than David Dunbar Buick.

Threxx

Somebody has been googling / wiki-ing.

Oddball

This is great -- and about time. Now just keep up the quality when you make the G8 :-)

JakeRobb

Yup.

I knew that Buick invented the OHV engine, that OHC had been around for a long-*** time, and that GM had been building 5-speed autos for just about as long as anyone else, but I googled for the details.

routesixtysixer

Good grief, how can I make this explaination any more simple: I was merely suggesting, since Buick drivetrains were less mechanically complex, that said drivetrains should be easier to make more reliable, hence the higher ratings. I was not deriding Buick at all, just noting what I thought should be obvious. I swear, some people just live to argue.

JakeRobb

You didn't say that; how should I know that's what you meant? What you said implied that GM's engines and transmissions were technologically behind.

I don't think that mechanical complexity in this case really affects reliability. As I noted earlier, OHV and OHC engines have both been around ~100 years. Anyone building engines of either type really has no excuse for reliability problems related to that particular design choice.

4- and 5-speed electronically-controlled automatic transmissions work in much the same way. Outside of cost and space constraints, there's really no reason that either company couldn't build a reliable automatic transmission with 20 ratios.

Yup.

I'm not the only one here, either. If you don't like it, be more careful to say what you mean.

flowmotion

Yeah, but in this particular case, the 3800 and the 4 speed trannies unquestionably are technologically behind.

It seems like you're making a theoretical argument, but it seems obvious here that Buick has used a lot of "old reliable" stuff and traditionally shied away from GM's higher-tech parts.

91_z28_4me

But does that really matter? If a company makes a powertrain that will keep up w/ a competitor in performance and economy does it matter if it is OHV or OHC? 5 speed auto or 4 speed auto? if it has been around 1 year or 100 years?

What matters is the end result and the 3800 4 speed combo was competitive in EVERY measure except higher RPM NHV.

flowmotion

The 200HP 3800 is competitive with the 260HP engine in the toyota avalon? Not even Buick thinks so, which is why the 3800 is only offered in base models nowdays with more powerful OHC engine available.

JakeRobb

Unquestionably? I'm right here questioning it. Go ahead, tell me how a Lexus 5-speed transmission is more technologically advanced than the 4L60E.

You want technologically-advanced transmissions? How about Volkswagen's DSG? Ferrari F1? I'm sorry, but a Lexus 5-speed (or even 8-speed) isn't the least bit significant from a technological standpoint.

Competitive? Who said anything about competitive? We're talking about technological advancement, and about how "futuristic" these vehicles and their components are.

No, of course a 200hp engine doesn't stack up well against a 263hp engine, regardless of valvetrain layout. Regardless, it doesn't mean the 3800 is low-tech. In case you hadn't noticed, GM sells a 260hp version of the 3800 in certain other vehicles. (Yes, it's supercharged. What's the matter, too futuristic for you?)

SSbaby

To be perfectly pedantic I don't agree. Engines with cam belts are like ticking time bombs... if you fail to change the belt you will ruin your engine (interference engines). The good old fashioned timing chain on an OHV is shorter and less prone to stretch. While on DOHCs, particularly those with chains, are likely to stretch over time, thus stepping out the timing.

As for transmissions, some transmissions are more advanced mainly in their software calibration... especially if the transmission's PCM talks to the engine's PCM. Of course some transmissions don't have PCMs in which case they might behave more agriculturally. Some 'less advanced' transmissions may not run sensors on the output shaft... which could make a mechanically perfect transmission seem like a low quality unit. GM have been guilty of such omissions in the past.