and don't forget the most important thing.

This forum actually has a "SEARCH" button that works and everything.

I know its hard to believe, and many people seem to think that asking the same question 9000 times is better than longer more detailed threads on one subject. But, the search feature really does work.

 

Is it me...or is dumping $5 billion in Saturn a huge risk? Saturn may have high dealer ratings, but it is going to take a lot to erase those POS cars from the past in peoples minds. That money needs to go to Chevy.

What makes no sense is Pontiac sells well...yet they want to kill it under the idea that they are already dumping money to fix Saturn and Buick who were not selling well?

GM's problems are so obvious. For years they dumped all the development money in trucks. A few years ago they got religion and started spending money on cars...problem is, not enough money. When I say that I mean they spent $900 million on the 2004 Malibu. Sounds like a lot untill you realize the ugly catfish Taurus was a $3 billion dollar project in the early 90's.

Now GM is stuck with old trucks in a market shrinking because of high gas prices. They have spent a ton of money on the GMT-900's, but at best they will hold the fort.

Making matters worse, all your new cars you have bought out (save for the Cobalt), are already behind the competion and need to be refreshed to be competive.

I also wanna know how much they spent on Kappa. I am willing to bet Lutz is on the hotseat over that one now. Especially if you axe Pontiac and the Solstice. If the Sky looses money like Wagoner claims, that means the Solstice will too.

A while back I read that Buick was getting $3 Billion spent on it. To me it would seem much smarter to save the $3 billion it takes to replace Buick's linup, and keep Pontiac who has an all new linup that sells decently. Then you could gradually make Pontiac the Lexus fighter you want Buick to be.

I dunno...thats why I am not an auto exec.

 

me personally, i agree with formula
saturn has a ways to go in the rep dept.
my suggestion would be to dump saturn and just invest in buick (course, i'd really like to see both stay)
i think they just need each brand to have the identity they're supposed to have
everything is becoming more alike each time and nobody knows the real difference between any brands anymore

since cutting divisions would cost money also, just keep all of them
chevy is pretty much done in the way of turnaround
almost every car has been updated save for the upcoming impy/monte and trucks/suvs
caddy is done being turned around- maybe a bls later on but whatever
hummer is fine
gmc is fine
pontiac is pretty close to being where they should, maybe a new model or two
buick needs...anything and everything at this point
saturn?

basically, all you need to do is turn buick and saturn around right?
give pontiac a little chunk to make one more new model and then just reform buick and saturn
i guess we'll see, i just don't think brand cutting is the way
brand DEFINING is what they need, jmho

 

All NA Zeta programs appear to be cancelled.

 

Huh???

 

JasonD

thanks man...it was getting a little to...

lets tell Santa Claus rumors that hes real or not...


oh and JasonD I might be posting, maybee in this forum, maybee not today, but possibly today in another forum, but it could be in a diffrent forum about something related.. you follow...neither do I. but thats how I feel with these insiders really throwing out a thin line to follow..

 

GM made 1,885,199 cars in 2004. Just 419,962 of those were Pontiacs. That's alot less than the 470,065 sold by the Impala and new Malibu alone. Oldsmobile was selling over 300,000 when it was killed.

Saturn has reputation. Not to us, but to people who don't even know Saturn's part of GM (probabally about 75% of the buying public). GM is investing in the name.

That 900 million spent on the Malibu is on top of the money GM spent on the Espilon architecture. It was all mainly design money.... (insert snide remarks here).

Lutz isn't on the hotseat over Kappa. That's why GM has so many comittees and hurdles (too many IMO) a new car has to cross. Even Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoner can't force a car through the process. No one is on the hotseat before the car even comes out.

It's easy to forget how some of us were doing cartwheels over the Solstice a year ago, but now look at it as a car that shouldn't have been done. Don't believe anyone telling you Kappa isn't going to make money. Simply doing some rough math shows that the Solstice is extremely likely to to make money, let alone the Sky at 25K and Opel's version at over 30K. The only way Kappa isn't going to make GM money is if they explode while parked on dealer lots.

 

While we are on the subject of the Solstice, I took a gander at it on Pontiacs website...and man I gotta have this car. Like I really want this car. The lines of it..I really forgot how sexy it really is.
If this car doesnt sell out in 2 months, then GM should close up shop cause its past the point of no return.

 

That 470,000 is nearly 25% of GM's car output. Pontiac could be higher also with solid replacements for dead weight like the Sunfire and Bonneville.


I really doubt this and always have. Everyone I know who has driven a Saturn calls it a **** box. If they are so great...why have sales kept tanking? I am willing to bet the reason Saturn's customer service rankings are so high are because of #1- The no haggle gimmick, and #2- If you actually buy one of the current uncompetitive Saturn's, you much really like Saturn to begin with...so it would be contridictory to complain.

Either way, if GM has spent this money on Saturn 7 years ago, I would have no issue...however I think in that time GM has killed pretty much any good brand identity it had in Saturn with people who have not bought one. This whole situation just reaks of the Old's debacle. Spend $5 billion then axe the whole mess when you realize that it was dumb to begin with.

What GM has planned for Saturn should be done to Chevy. Chevy needs higher level vehicles to compete with Toyota and Honda. Current Chevy's cater to people who can't afford Honda's and Toyota's....that is not how it should be. No GM brand has more power in the market place than Chevy..that simple.


How much did Epsilon cost? I thought Saab was the lead designer?

Wagoner said a few months ago that the Sky would not make money. That would lead one to beleive the Cheaper Solstice will not either. With four years in development costs, I am willing to bet that the Kappa platform costs are...surpising...for a car that has no impact on the bottom line.

Plus, they are not halo cars. A halo car is a Corvette...people come in the showroom to look at it, and you sell them something cheaper when they realize they cannot afford it. It makes no sense to have a $20K halo car in a showroom of $25-40K cars. I can hear the dealers now...."I know you like the Solstice sir, but you really should buy this Grand Prix, or GTO that cost $10 more?" I am sure someone here will make an argument against this logic...you want the "must have/limited production" car in your dealer ship to be the most expensive...not the cheapest.

 

I hear the word halo car thrown around alot, but it seems to me Chevy lost their "working man's" halo car when they killed the Camaro. I think you're more likely to find a Chevy truck in the driveway beside a Camaro than a Corvette. I see more Corvette owners having a Lexus SUV or something else in their garage.

Another example, the GT is Ford's "halo" car. Unless you live in large city I doubt a dealer near you will even get one. However, the new Mustang is bringing people into the showrooms in droves. Those are the people more likely to buy another Ford product. Do you think the GT owner is going to be caught dead driving a Taurus?

Anyway, my point is a well done Camaro could generate more sales than just the 100,000+ on paper they'd like to achieve.

 

There are still people at GM who want a Camaro. If you see one, it won't be as soon as you think and apparently won't be on Zeta.

Something I've been trying to hint at here for months........eventhough I seem to have agitated alot of people here over it.

 

That will be their problem. So will be the loss of enthusiasts and sales/excitement it could have generated, and former owners refusing to buy their cars once whatever is known for sure. If it's true at all.

 

I respect your opinion, and to a large extent agree with you. I think what I'm getting at when I say an "enthusiast" car is a true, pony-style car. I view all the cars above as "normal" cars. Compare what an F body was to what an Impala SS will be. Impala SS is an awesome car, but its a "normal" car to me in that it is based on a regular 4 door sedan, whereas an F body was a performance-type car in style, function, etc. Indeed, I am liking the new Monte SS more and more every time I look at it on Chevy's website. I honestly believe this WILL be my next daily driver. This is the first car I have said this about in a long time, period.

But, its still a "normal" car. It does not make my blood boil the way banging through the gears on my Z with the top off on a sunny Sunday afternoon does. I will not wax it once a month. I will not store it in the winter. An "enthusiast" car to me is an F body-like machine. There are 2 GM models that fit the bill to a tee...Vette and GTO. Both are unfortunately significantly more $$ than I will allow myself to spend on a car for some time. A new MC SS will be a good $5k behind a GTO MSRP-wise...and that's $100 a month over 5 years. That's not including the discounting the MC will likely get too.

You are right...GM is making some flat awesome cars these days that I like very much. But I want a blood boiler I can afford...currently, only Ford can give me that. I don't mean to be all gloom and doom...I guess I just want what I want.

With that being said, I'll take my new MC SS in black please, with the inevitable "3" for the back window

 

This IS a business. Much as I hate to say it, Pontiac and GMC are redundant. Made sense in the day to have GMC around to give Pontiac dealers a way to sell trucks, but anymore it just sucks money from Chevy. Someone once said, "It costs no more to design and build a good looking car than an ugly car." Get that quote over to whoever styled the current Malibu, Impala and Monte Carlo over at Chevy. Even Toyota has better styled cars than Chevy these days... and they're not exactly known for their styling. And now Ford really shoves it in their face with the runaway success of the new Mustang. SOMEBODY AT GM NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! The culprits need to be culled so the car guys can do what needs to be done.

 

I side with everyone believing Pontiac is staying. GM will NOT kill Pontiac. I side with Buick and GMC going away, assuming more GM divisions are cut. Buicks sales continue to go down and the average buyer age continues to go up. GMC owners will mostly buy Chevys anyway.

But Pontiac is a brand GM needs. Its the company's most youth-oriented brand that still sells nearly 500,000 cars a year.

What is interesting here is that NO ONE has mentioned Saab in all of this...