All rumors should be seriously questioned.

But it's not like the automakers have the final say in this. The Gov't does. It's also not like the mandates they make have always been easily marketed, either. Cars were awfully slow from the late 70s through the mid 80s thanks to similar mandates. If the gov't says "Go ahead and install these 'big brother boxes' in every vehicle you make," there's not a whole lot that can be done.

I imagine the counter argument for your serious injury scenario is "call 911, send ambulance." but I would not be the one to argue it. I would rather the Mrs. drive me as well.

My personal opinion is that the only people who really need to be worried about any of this are the ones who suck at driving and maintaining cars in the first place. I think we can all agree that we could stand to have a few of those types off the road.

 

There are good sides to all sorts of terrible ideas. We do not need to be monitored regardless of what good it can do. It just isn't worth it.

 

Did you mean to quote me or someone else? If you meant to quote me, I don't understand the connection to the question.

 

Personally I don't buy the old argument that if you weren't doing anything wrong, you wouldn't have any reason to fear the "black box". History has shown that governments will always find ways to abuse that kind of information. If I am innocent until proven guilty, why put me under constant surveillance?

But this has been debated to death and isn't really why I asked the question. Since the black box obviously can be used for more than maintenance purposes, it obviously enters the privacy issues territory. Most companies publish their privacy policy indicating what information they are collecting and how it is used. Since the "black box" is part of an information system, what are the car manufacturers privacy policies with respect to this information?

I believe we have right to know directly from the manufacturer. In fact it should be provided when you buy the car. Also, just like web sites that allow you to opt out of having your information used for marketing purposes, we should be able to opt out of having this information collected about us.

I would be inclined to buy a car from a company that respects my right to privacy. I should at least have the choice. What do you think?

 

Well, there are tools to actually wipe stuff off your hard drive for good. I'm sure that if anyone was really concerned about the PCM, similar tools could be made to ensure a complete wipe out of the data.

 

I think the issue is far bigger than this. It all boils down to the fact that people in the world are having their privacy taken away. A little bit here, a little bit there. I'm not a doomsday prophet, by no means, but any trend to decreased privacy and liberty is approaching a totalitarian regime.

I'ts not just in the US, but it seems that both the US and the UK are pioneers in this.

There are more and more requestsby the government to exercise control over YOUR devices, and regulate what you can and cannot do with them. They have been pushing for ways to disable your car remotely, to access your computer remotely. With everyone and their brother now having a cell phone with a camera, how long will it be before FBI/CIA/DHS/NSA (or any other agency for that matter) will give itself the rights to turn these devices on and listen or watch, so that they could snoop on terrorists?

I slowly see our society spinning out of control, where the general populace (proles) is not concerned about politics and what's being done, and each politician is being less than qualified to hold his/her position.

 

Exactly. Look at DUI checkpoints ... hard to believe that our society voluntarily accepts illegal search and seizure and thinks nothing of it. But it's for a good cause, many folks say. That's not the point. Once we start allowing the government to make judgement calls on when it's okay to infringe on our established rights, we're well on the path to losing those rights. Same thing with DUI legislation, which is basically making a person a criminal based on the probability they will commit a crime, not for actually commiting a crime itself. Again, society thought it was okay to give up some freedom for some perceived, short-sighted, 'greater good', but now look what's happening: they want to make driving while cell phoning illegal too. That wouldn't have been remotely possible if we didn't already open the door on DWI. I wonder what they'll make illegal next?

I'm not real happy about these black boxes either. Unfortunately they're so integrated into the vehicle electronics you can't remove them. However I'm not sure they violate the 5th since you're not incriminating yourself; the black box is (then again, I'm no law-talking dude so I could be wrong). Other than ownership, would it be that different if the evidence was provided by a street camera instead of your car's computer? Still, I'd like to see some automaker make a big point about protecting owners' privacy and not recording this information, and then naming all the competing cars that will rat you out. Such a market force is probably the only way to stop this.

 

Well, the way I think of it is, when the "right to operate an automobile" is included in the Constitution, then we'll have a more solid arguement against these pesky event data recorders/black boxes.

 

Exactly...

We're a little more than a year away from having national ID cards(with transmitters)...nevermind black boxes in the 5th gen, it won't matter what car you're in. We're also on the brink of a 'North American Union'...unbeknownst to most, new laws, no more constitution.

Not trying to be Dooming either, but can you honestly say things are looking up for us? Buying a 5th gen may be the least of our worries.


Back to our 'reality'...what happens if you blow your motor at the track...whats the point of buying a performance car if you can't use it, even legally? There is no don't be doing stuff you shouldn't be doing argument.

I swear this, i wish i was born in the 50's

 

Glad the Michigan Militia showed up with their KKKrazy conspiracy theories.

I think the basic issue is that if you own the car, you own the "black box", and therefore have the right to control the data that it contains. Of course, most people would sign that away for a small deduction on their car insurance.

 

This is exacly my point. At least give people the choice and the information to make the right choice. I think PCMs are slowly becoming surveillance computers with and eventually will have less to do with operating the vehicle and more to do with other less acceptable information gathering. Let me choose the vehicle based on this....

 

I'm all in favor of those checkpoints. If a guy walks in the door of a store & starts to pull a gun, but a cop behind him jumps him before he finishes pulling it out & yells "This is a stickup." should we find him not guilty of attempted armed robbery? If a DUI checkpoint is an assault on my civil liberties, then it's one that I'll gladly accept just to get the jackasses that insist on driving drunk off the road! When a drunk driver get's on the road they're playing "Russian Roulette". And not just with their life, but yours & mine as well! And without our permission! I don't know about you, but I prefer that someone DOESN'T take chances with my life! ESPECIALLY without my knowledge or consent! In fact I would be in favor of a law mandating the installation of a breathalyzer in bars so that someone leaving who is legally drunk the bar is obligated to keep their key's (which they would have to turn in when they came in.) & call them a ride. A motor vehicle is a weapon. And with a drunk behind the wheel of it, it becomes a loaded weapon,(in more ways than one.). The thing that a lot of people seem to forget (& not just the drunks) is that driving is a priviledge that the state is granting you. It's not your God given right!

 

Many hold the belief that if you've got nothing to hide you shouldn't worry about being watched. Take that premise and ask yourself, if you're sitting on your couch or lying in bed watching TV, would you like someone taking enough interest in you to leer at you through the window? You're doing nothing wrong and breaking no laws, right? What do you have to hide? You close the blinds or curtains for a reason. I just wanted to deal with that point I saw earlier in the thread. People have a right to privacy and the presumption of innocence.

Believe it or not, there are some very valid safety reasons for wanting to maintain a history in the PCM. The big problem here is that that information may be made available to about anyone. Get in an accident? It's your car, can your car testify against you? If, five seconds before impact, you were five miles over the speed limit, could your insurance claim be refused? Could that fact be used against you in criminal proceedings? In the U.S. the answer isn't totally settled, but at least law enforcement can have access to the data in your car's computer. Now a brief, five second rolling window might not be so bad, but who says how long it is? Could the window be longer? OnStar can connect to your car and read your trouble codes and tell you what's wrong with your engine. Can they read vehicle speed too? What if someone wanted to know how fast and where you were headed? Between OnStar and GPS you could be tracked in realtime without your knowledge.

I don't have a problem with data collection. I have a real problem with who might have access to the data and for what it might be used. I don't trust the government to do the right thing quite honestly.

 

It's not even necessary. Think of it as your computer's RAM. As soon power is cut to it, all data is immediately erased. That's why disconnecting the battery will reset your car computer (not immediately, they have a backup of sorts, but give it 15-20 minutes...)

 

"I seriously question rumors like that. I mean...the last thing an automaker wants to do is give the public a solid reason not to buy one of their cars. Would someone want to buy a car with the fear of something like that happening? Very few."
You are talking about cars.
To compare this to computers, if something is on a harddrive, and you delete it, it isn't actually deleted. But people still buy computers and computer companies aren't worrying about "[giving] the public a solid reason not to buy one of their [computers]"

Most people currently don't know this about computers, and most people currently don't know that their cars are recording the way they drive computationally and audibly without them knowing it.