PacerX

Ouch.

The weatherman just done laid the smack down on me.

I already HAVE an icicle, that's the problem.

Chris 96 WS6

You guys want a RWD snow story?

How's this. January 1994. I'm on Christmas break from my freshman year in college. I'm on my 2nd date at the time with a girl who is now my wife and the mother of my baby girl. I'm over at her parents' house and we're watching movies.

They forcast snow that night. It doesn't snow often in Kentucky and rarely snows more than an inch or two. My ride at the time is a 1985 LG4 (155hp V8) powered Camaro Sport Coupe with an open rear end.

At about midnight I go out to my car to leave and there is FOURTEEN INCHES OF SNOW on the ground. Snow was up over the bottom of the nose on the car. Essentially I was snowed in and spent the night on their living room floor.

Had to leave the car, walk home, and come back 2 days later with a shovel and dig the car out. THat snow was on the ground for almost 2 weeks. However, once I got the car free 2 days later I actually got around pretty well despite the lack of positraction.

2 years later I led a 3- car caravan onto the Parkway for a 70 mile drive back to college in that same car...in a blinding snowstorm, all because her parents were convinced classes were going to start and we'd miss it staying home. Sure enough classes were cancelled for 3 days.....that's OK, I only ALMOST DIED twice on that trip, drove the car basically sideways twice trying to avoid hitting other cars, etc. You couldn't really see the lanes because there was already 4-6 inches of snow, and most of it was virgin/no tire tracks. Plus you couldn't see other cars until you were right on top of them.

I think if you know how to drive RWD in inclement weather it is not a disadvantage, but for the masses out there AWD is sort of more idiot proof. Having said that, Mustang isn't AWD and I don't think Camaro should be either.

JBird33

Making assumptions eh? I know what it is like to have a Z28 in the winter, hell it is snowing at this very moment. So don't go giving me this "I'd buy into it" nonsense. I have to drive on ice every winter. So next time, please don't argue my point by jumping to conclusions about what I have and haven't done. It makes your credibility shoot right down the drain when that is the only counterpoint to my original post. "If I have ever lived in New England..." lol as if that is the only place that there is snow and ice.

Geoff Chadwick

I really think I gotta chime in on this one, cause some people *I THINK* need to just consider a few things.

If a Camaro is stuck on a platform that has an AWD option, stick it on, it WILL get sales. If its not part of the chassis, then please, please no. People will still say "its a camaro" and some may say "well it has AWD" but many will also still say "its a camaro and therefore is bad, AWD or not".

Who here has driven the newer 3 and 5 series BMW's in the winter? Their computer systems are incredible at keeping the car together, and with snow tires they are a blast to drive. I'd take the regular 3 series over the AWD every day of every week. Simply unless you're crazy and drive like a fool, you dont need it. The computer does the work. We should learn from this.

Leave AWD to the Cobalt chassis and the Grand Prix/Impala. That would give the imports something to cry about and possibly leave the option for an AWD HHR and of course AWD mid-luxury-sport-sedans, which in the growing crossover market and the strong sport sedan market might be an advantage.

Get more computer systems on there, thats what I say. We can reprogram those anyway, and the 02' fbody had terrible ABS and TCS.

Jason E

Dude, chill out. You say sales won't be won by people liking AWD. If you get snow, awesome, but to say AWD won't win sales in cold climates? I'd like to say you're a complete idiot, but that would be rude of me I have to say, you're very amusing. If you want to slide around, good for you Its great you have ice. I never said New England was the only place that had it. But put it this way...where I live, other than Buffalo and Central MI (both of which get that good ol' lake effect snow), we consistently get some of the largest storms in the nation, every winter. If you think your Z28 is great in snow, then the next time there's over 8" of snow on the roads, take it for a spin and see how far you get I can plow snow in my Grand Prix, which has barely more ground clearance than my Z28. Can you do that with your Camaro?

MMkay? Get the bug out of your ***...it may help you To say AWD wouldn't help Camaro sales is pretty brain dead.

Jason E

Its been my thinking all throughout this thread that AWD would be baked into the chassis anyway, which wouldn't really hurt anything. You bring up another good point though...some WILL say "its a Camaro and therefore its bad."

That's why I say, in that .02% chance its made available, the October Camaro TV ads should show a Camaro cruising down Main St. USA on a nice summer night, followed by doing power slides on a snowy road in the middle of winter, with all 4 wheels shooting snow That would get some attention!

Z284ever

This all wheel drive thing......

I've run the gamut regarding this topic. At first I thought Eh. Then I thought brilliant!

Now I find myself where I'm at now. Which is, GM should spend the effort and money to get Camaro light, tidy and right.....rather than spend that effort and money on AWD and possibly be left with a less light, less tidy and less right RWD Camaro.

On the other hand, can you imagine what a cool package an AWD Monte Carlo SS would be?

stangitr

RWD cars can sell just fine, just look at the new Mustang and Chrysler RWD cars. Believe me, it's not the RWD that turned people away from the 4th gen Camaros.

30thZ286speed

Ahh yes you just brought back some memories, the great snow storm in 1994 we got 23-24" around here in central KY. The Intersates along with every other road was shut down for a whole week. At that time I had a '87 Cavalier RS 2-door 2.0L 5-speed and that thing would really go in the snow, until the snow got so deep that it would bottom out the chassis. That night working late at the movies, I along with some co-workers got snowed in at work. Later that night we needed to get some food and the Kroger in the adjacent shopping center was still open. At this time there was 8+ inchs of snow and my car was the only one that would go through it, but ONLY in reverse. In the forward gears it would just spin so I worked my way through the parking lots in reverse with my head sticking out of the window looking backward. The snow was so heavy that it insantly covered the rear window if you brushed it off. The next day we had a bulldozer pull my car out to the main road, for the rest of the week I drove everywhere while 4WD trucks and Jeeps were stuck everywhere, and my little car just kept going. In that kind of snow there is little steering you just go where the ruts take you. The first time I made it home as I approached the driveway I got speed up and plowed right into the untouched snow, the snow came up and over the hood and it took hours to get my car back out. All this time later I am still amazed at how well that little car did in the snow. Amazingly my later Cavalier which was a Convertible and V6 didn't do as well as the snow for some reason.
I know this isn't anything special for some folks who get snows like this often but for here its rare and considering the weathermen were calling for 1 to 2 inches that night.

As far as a AWD Camaro I am kind of split on the issue, I think it would be pretty neat to see it as a option, but for some reason I don't think it would sell. So it may not be economically viable considering the extra cost and limited production.
And considering a properly setup RWD system will do very good in the snow, just like Scott said a 4th gen with some extra weight in the back would go places in the snow that a FWD Impala wouldn't during testing.

JBird33

Logical fallacies seem to be your specialty when trying to argue. I never said AWD would help nor hurt sales, there is no way for me to think either way. I simply stated that I don't buy into the statement of "AWD WILL improve sales." This is too vague of a statement and too far off to be argued for well either way. I then went on to say that I am one person who wouldn't buy one even if it was an option, being one example of a lost sale. I also never said that I thought that my Camaro was great in the snow. These are facts, not conjecture like you offer "Well if you did this" and "Well you said that." If need be, re-read my other posts. Oh and next time you want to call me a complete idiot or braindead, be man enough to just say it without a little happy face or some other kind of nonsense to make it seem as though you are kidding.

teal98

But on the 0-400m tests, it's nearly a second behind due to much more weight and lower power (AWD hardware gets in the way of intake and/or exhaust as I recall). So if the Camaro ended up like the Holden AWD, you'd be looking at a 400hp 13.3s RWD car versus a 360hp 14.3s AWD car.
Also, though the RWD car might squeak by without a guzzler tax, the AWD car would certainly be subject to it, with its extra 200+ pounds and higher driveline friction.

If there are any weight or packaging penalties to the RWD model to allow for building AWD, it would be a mistake for GM to make the AWD option, I think.

teal98

As I understand it, Epsilon-2 (or whatever it's called) will be AWD capable. Wouldn't that make a good start for an Evo/STI competitor? Put in a big V6 or turbo 4. If the smallblock fits, so much the better!

Maybe call it a Firebird, though no doubt purists would complain about the use of that name on a transverse engine car even if it's a two door.

Jason E

All p!ssing and moaning aside, AWD would improve sales. You say otherwise, congrats. How you can say otherwise, with the fact remaining that one of the main reasons people don't buy these cars in places with significant snow is because of poor winter traction, is beyond me. Where my logical fallicies seem to be is also beyond me, but to each their own.

Charlie,
Yeah, I really wish AWD had made its way into a car like the MC SS. However, I wonder if the sales impact would be as great as when taking a RWD car and making it AWD? In my mind, AWD makes up for a deficiency. FWD doesn't seem to have quite the traction deficiency RWD chassis tend to. Our local Dodge dealer sells almost 100% of his Magnums with AWD...yet his minivans never sell with AWD. Could be different markets for those given cars, too...but I wonder. Someone above mentioned the fact that BMW does seem to get around the RWD/snow issue with some pretty impressive traction control systems. I've driven a 5 series in the snow, and it was quite good.

With that said, come to think of it, the GTO is pretty good too. Its heavier, plus it has the benefit of having the gas tank directly over the rear wheels. Fill that puppy up, and its almost like having extra sandbags

Jason E

Upon reflection, I'd like to apologize for my sometimes-pissy attitude in this thread. Normally, I don't argue in this manner. However, it just escapes my comprehension as to why anyone would say AWD would not improve sales of a car that needs to be a sales home run. I posted earlier that after selling Firebirds for 3 model years, I can pretty much be assured that better inclement weather traction would give a major sales boost in the Northeast. After that, I get compared to Buickman...which I dare say would put anyone here in a bad mood...

In summary, I don't think AWD will have a snowball's chance in hell in making it into a 5th gen. I can see where some take issue with the thought. In my mind, it helps enhance the performance and sophistication attributes of the car, both of which are not bad things considering the stigma this car has surrounding it with the general public. Everyone I know who owns a 4th gen puts it away from November through April...I think it'd be nice if people didn't feel like they had to...that they had THE OPTION against having to do so.

Saying AWD wouldn't help sales, after listening to literally 75 or so different people walk away from Firebirds over the years, most often telling me driving in snow is the biggest reason why they won't buy one, is like telling me I could fly if I flapped my arms hard enough. Disagree if you want, but I can't imagine why. Some of you wouldn't want AWD...hell, I wouldn't even want it on my 5th gen. But for those who can only have one car, a lot of people I met over the years would be a lot better sales candidate.

With that said, we're splitting hairs anyway...it'll never happen.

Z284ever

I said the MC SS because not only would that give you a sure-footed, V8, all weather coupe, but it would rectify what I think is power at the ragged edge of what front wheels can handle.

Maybe Epsilon II or some variation of Lamda.