AWD and the 5th gen
11-25-2005, 02:36 PM
#91
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Re: Why I'd like to see AWD optional
Originally Posted by eagleknight97
AWD is only marginally better than FWD and RWD in winter situations, and its main advantage is acceleration. If this above trip was made in that same car, with those same tires, yet the car had AWD, the same outcome could have been reasonably expected.
I'm not suggesting that AWD is a magic bullet. Overall tires ARE the single biggest factor, but there are times when AWD is a good thing, and I'd be willing to pay for it.
11-25-2005, 07:26 PM
#92
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by WERM
Well, this is 2005, not 1999. A GTO which doesn't really have any extra content over a top line Camaro is $34,000. An STi with a four cylinder turbo engine is $34,000. So tell me how a Camaro is going to suddenly cost $10,000 less with AWD? Have any of you guys looked at what other AWD performance cars sell for? What makes Camaro a special case?
AWD would price this car out of its own market.
AWD would price this car out of its own market.
Camaro will be priced very close to Mustang.
Mustang V6 base price = $19,810.
Mustang GT base price = $25,835.
Add $2000 to each for optional AWD (GM pretty much adds $1900 to their vehicles to add in AWD (Sigma platformed Cadillac SRX and STS included!!) and you are no where near $35,000 and $40,000 respectively. Now, if you pile on the options, ya, maybe you can get them up there, but I still don't think they'll even be close.
11-25-2005, 07:48 PM
#93
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
I can just see it now...
When the F5 finally hits the street and the Mustang owners who have been foaming at the mouth in anticipation of racing one get their chance to, after they've had their a$$es handed to them thoroughly and consistently, (gee, you don't think THAT might happen do you?), this is probably the first thing we're gonna hear out of them:
"Of course you beat me, I'm only running on two wheels."
And how are we supposed to answer that? By explaining that, no, that silly little AWD thing was just put in there to make our cars safer on slippery roads?
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Putting AWD on a Camaro would be like giving Mike Tyson a pair of brass knuckles to wear under his boxing gloves.
It's just...not...necessary.
When the F5 finally hits the street and the Mustang owners who have been foaming at the mouth in anticipation of racing one get their chance to, after they've had their a$$es handed to them thoroughly and consistently, (gee, you don't think THAT might happen do you?), this is probably the first thing we're gonna hear out of them:
"Of course you beat me, I'm only running on two wheels."
And how are we supposed to answer that? By explaining that, no, that silly little AWD thing was just put in there to make our cars safer on slippery roads?
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Putting AWD on a Camaro would be like giving Mike Tyson a pair of brass knuckles to wear under his boxing gloves.
It's just...not...necessary.
11-26-2005, 07:05 AM
#95
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
We're only supporting it as an option here fellas. Jeez, some of you guys are really getting worked up over this. Its not gonna happen anyway. Some of us just think it would be a cool option to have. It would not change the mission of the car at all and I also dont think it would be priced out of its market if the chassis is already engineered for optional AWD setups.
Like I said in my previous post, the tradionalists and purists will hate the idea, as has been proven by this thread
Like I said in my previous post, the tradionalists and purists will hate the idea, as has been proven by this thread
11-26-2005, 08:56 AM
#96
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
Camaro will be priced very close to Mustang.
Mustang V6 base price = $19,810.
Mustang GT base price = $25,835.
Add $2000 to each for optional AWD (GM pretty much adds $1900 to their vehicles to add in AWD (Sigma platformed Cadillac SRX and STS included!!) and you are no where near $35,000 and $40,000 respectively. Now, if you pile on the options, ya, maybe you can get them up there, but I still don't think they'll even be close.
Mustang V6 base price = $19,810.
Mustang GT base price = $25,835.
Add $2000 to each for optional AWD (GM pretty much adds $1900 to their vehicles to add in AWD (Sigma platformed Cadillac SRX and STS included!!) and you are no where near $35,000 and $40,000 respectively. Now, if you pile on the options, ya, maybe you can get them up there, but I still don't think they'll even be close.
11-26-2005, 09:17 AM
#97
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by WERM
Well hey, if it's just that easy, then why doesn't everyone else do it already? I mean, if there are no penalities in cost, packaging and weight for the 2WD models, then why not make all RWD cars AWD capable? It would increase sales at no cost!
Not sure about the Mustang's platform, but I don't believe it has an "off the shelf" AWD system available.
That about sums up the main competition....
Challenger could be interesting though. It could get an "off the shelf" AWD system.
11-26-2005, 10:40 AM
#98
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by muckz
But I am not pissed. I'm just disappointed that you bring up your emotions to a discussion that invites logic and reason.
Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? That's what I thought too when I read you tried to validate your opinion as more correct because you were selling Pontiacs for 3 years. Hopefully that comparison sobered you up.
I never did. I don't care what people do for a living. Just don't try to raise yourself above others on this forum BECAUSE YOU SELL CARS. That's what Buickman did.
It doesn't matter, really.
You said that people who want RWD do donuts in the parking lot. A person to take offense at this would be anyone who advocates RWD only. Why are you getting worked up? Supposedly you condescended on me, and now that I brought it up you're upset? Just where do you come from, because they don't make them like that anymore.
A rather narrowminded view, I would say. And you dealt with customers buying vehicles for 3 years and that's what you think of those who buy RWD vehicles? Wow, simply wow.
I never said you did either. Allow me to direct your own advice at you: So do me a favor and READ A GD POST FIRST.
Doesn't seem to deter Mustang buyers. I was going to suggest fine tuning your sales pitch, but the truth of the matter is that no one really had success selling fbodies in their last few years.
I can and will tell you that there are few who desire them. ANd you did and can still tell me that in your opinion I'm wrong. I base my opinion on what I observe about G35x and BMW 330x, 300C AWD, etc... The percentage of those vehicles bought with AWD is quite small - I would like to see sales breakdown. However, those are family sedans, a lot more practical than a pony car. To develop/implement AWD system on a car such as fbody is not worthwhile for whatever potential returns it may generate.
You are right, but I doubt that's what I meant. Plainly, I just fail to see AWD's place in a pony car. Is that so hard to accept? I tolerate your opinion, can you tolerate mine?
I don't think I need to answer this one, of course we need better. The money from AWD can be spent elsewhere to make it truly better.
I do not disagree with you on everything. You are right about changing people's perception. However, the bigger question remains Is the benefit greater than the cost?
The only one who is really bothered by the fact you sold f-bodies for 3 years is you, not me.
A RWD Camaro WILL be more expensive than RWD Mustang, all because the Camaro has AWD as an option. They could be made the same price, but something will have to suffer. And judging from 4th gen's fit and finish and such parts as glasspack rear end, there is no room for compromises. I don't know what you read from my previous post, because that's exactly what I stated.
Just doing some thinking. Perhaps you should try too.
The only goofball is you. Really.
Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? That's what I thought too when I read you tried to validate your opinion as more correct because you were selling Pontiacs for 3 years. Hopefully that comparison sobered you up.
I never did. I don't care what people do for a living. Just don't try to raise yourself above others on this forum BECAUSE YOU SELL CARS. That's what Buickman did.
It doesn't matter, really.
You said that people who want RWD do donuts in the parking lot. A person to take offense at this would be anyone who advocates RWD only. Why are you getting worked up? Supposedly you condescended on me, and now that I brought it up you're upset? Just where do you come from, because they don't make them like that anymore.
A rather narrowminded view, I would say. And you dealt with customers buying vehicles for 3 years and that's what you think of those who buy RWD vehicles? Wow, simply wow.
I never said you did either. Allow me to direct your own advice at you: So do me a favor and READ A GD POST FIRST.
Doesn't seem to deter Mustang buyers. I was going to suggest fine tuning your sales pitch, but the truth of the matter is that no one really had success selling fbodies in their last few years.
I can and will tell you that there are few who desire them. ANd you did and can still tell me that in your opinion I'm wrong. I base my opinion on what I observe about G35x and BMW 330x, 300C AWD, etc... The percentage of those vehicles bought with AWD is quite small - I would like to see sales breakdown. However, those are family sedans, a lot more practical than a pony car. To develop/implement AWD system on a car such as fbody is not worthwhile for whatever potential returns it may generate.
You are right, but I doubt that's what I meant. Plainly, I just fail to see AWD's place in a pony car. Is that so hard to accept? I tolerate your opinion, can you tolerate mine?
I don't think I need to answer this one, of course we need better. The money from AWD can be spent elsewhere to make it truly better.
I do not disagree with you on everything. You are right about changing people's perception. However, the bigger question remains Is the benefit greater than the cost?
The only one who is really bothered by the fact you sold f-bodies for 3 years is you, not me.
A RWD Camaro WILL be more expensive than RWD Mustang, all because the Camaro has AWD as an option. They could be made the same price, but something will have to suffer. And judging from 4th gen's fit and finish and such parts as glasspack rear end, there is no room for compromises. I don't know what you read from my previous post, because that's exactly what I stated.Just doing some thinking. Perhaps you should try too.
The only goofball is you. Really.
2) I didn't say my opinion was "more correct." I even told Bob in the same thread that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I based my opinion on evidence from selling Firebirds for 3 years. The NUMBER ONE complaint against purchasing one was "well, I'll need a second car, and I have no storage/$$$/understanding spouse that will let them happen." You are stating your opinion, while I was stating my opinion and the opinion of dozens of Firebird would-be customers over the years. Doesn't mean I'm more right...but I am speaking from experience with many owners and would be owners throughout the years.
3) Yes, I think everyone that buys RWD cars is a horse's *** and does donuts. Because that's EXACTLY what I said, right? Other than the ability to DO donuts, I can't see where AWD would give any real disadvantage. Yes, there is a weight penalty, but if you're drag racing the ability to have more traction more than offsets the weight.
4) I tolerate your opinion, but cannot for the life of me understand why people do not get the concept of why AWD couldn't be AN OPTION...especially in this instance where AWD will more than likely be part of the platform's inherent program! What in the world is the matter with an AWD option? You want to change people's perceptions too? Then give them a reason to change them. Fuel injection, dual airbags, ABS, traction control and a host of other items made the American muscle car more livable, safer and faster. AWD does all of the above...so what?
5) Are you an engineer? Prove to me that making AWD an option will make the RWD model more expensive...especially when its on the SAME PLATFORM as other models.
6) I've done a lot of thinking on the subject...I appreciate you completely ignoring mine.
Enough p!ssing and moaning anyway. To me, AWD is going to be an evolution a lot of cars will go through with time. I want an advanced Camaro. I want a Camaro that is so popular, I do see one on every corner, the way I did growing up in the '80s. AWD would help that a lot, especially in the Northeast. Do I expect it to happen? No. I think GM still doesn't get the point with AWD, and will lag behind until another big automaker (Toyota? Hyundai?) offers a performance coupe with it, and then Ford and GM will be forced to respond.
I'm a realist. I realize that the Camaro is a RWD, V6 or V8, 2+2 performance coupe first, and everything else second. That's what I love about the car. But IMO, if the Camaro is going to be a ground-pounding success that's going to win back the thousands of buyers its lost throughout the years, the car needs to be more things to more people than just us hardcore nuts who will buy it anyway. These are the people who visited my showroom and walked away. I think it'd be great to have a product for these people...many of whom owned a Camaro or a Firebird years ago, but are now older and don't feel like putting up with crappy winter traction to relive their youth. I've gotten a few PMs from people who can't see why AWD isn't ok AS AN OPTION...I don't get it either.
11-26-2005, 01:46 PM
#99
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Jason E
I'm a realist. I realize that the Camaro is a RWD, V6 or V8, 2+2 performance coupe first, and everything else second. That's what I love about the car. But IMO, if the Camaro is going to be a ground-pounding success that's going to win back the thousands of buyers its lost throughout the years, the car needs to be more things to more people than just us hardcore nuts who will buy it anyway. These are the people who visited my showroom and walked away. I think it'd be great to have a product for these people...many of whom owned a Camaro or a Firebird years ago, but are now older and don't feel like putting up with crappy winter traction to relive their youth. I've gotten a few PMs from people who can't see why AWD isn't ok AS AN OPTION...I don't get it either.
I am in agreement with this. Everyone on here is always saying that the Camaro MUST make compomises to ensure that more than just the enthusiasts buy the product. AWD, as an option on the lower end models, would definetly make the car more accessible to the mainstream. Leave the firebreathing top dog RWD, thats fine by me, but to the masses, I think this is something that should have (and maybe was) considered by GM, especially since the platform the Camaro is likely to ride on has already had substantial AWD tooling done for it.
11-26-2005, 05:17 PM
#100
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Jason E
I'm a realist. I realize that the Camaro is a RWD, V6 or V8, 2+2 performance coupe first, and everything else second. That's what I love about the car. But IMO, if the Camaro is going to be a ground-pounding success that's going to win back the thousands of buyers its lost throughout the years, the car needs to be more things to more people than just us hardcore nuts who will buy it anyway. These are the people who visited my showroom and walked away. I think it'd be great to have a product for these people...many of whom owned a Camaro or a Firebird years ago, but are now older and don't feel like putting up with crappy winter traction to relive their youth. I've gotten a few PMs from people who can't see why AWD isn't ok AS AN OPTION...I don't get it either.
i totally agree for 2 reasons. 1) i live in the northeast and i have been through a few winters with my Camaros. i know i can do it, but choose not to, thats why i got a truck for the snow. 2) i'm from the "younger" generation on here and don't see why having AWD as an OPTION is so sacreligious to the Camaro name. i want this car to shatter peoples perceptions of what a pony car should be, and let them see what a pony car can be. if that makes my opinion wrong, than so be it, but it's still my opinion.
11-26-2005, 06:29 PM
#101
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Jason E
3)....Yes, there is a weight penalty, but if you're drag racing the ability to have more traction more than offsets the weight....
11-26-2005, 08:48 PM
#102
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
AWD would be easier/cheaper to incorporate in a FWD vehicle, not really feasable for a RWD Camaro...
Bob, I just got a set of ET-Streets, (and 4" skinnies)can't wait to see!...(at least on my 3rd gen that is, for track only, ofcourse)
Bob, I just got a set of ET-Streets, (and 4" skinnies)can't wait to see!...(at least on my 3rd gen that is, for track only, ofcourse)
11-27-2005, 01:39 AM
#103
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
I do agree with Darth's thinking - if the platform has already absorbed the costs of an AWD variant, let it be offered. If it has not, then I'd rather the money be spent on making the Camaro in general.
I guess a question here is if you have two cars on the same platform, can the unibody (I guess that's what it would be called?) be dramatically different where one would have the necessary layout for awd and the other would not have such the layout?
If I can survive with the giant catalytic converter hump I don't mind any transfer case humps.
I guess a question here is if you have two cars on the same platform, can the unibody (I guess that's what it would be called?) be dramatically different where one would have the necessary layout for awd and the other would not have such the layout?
If I can survive with the giant catalytic converter hump I don't mind any transfer case humps.
11-27-2005, 08:35 AM
#104
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Chuck!
I do agree with Darth's thinking - if the platform has already absorbed the costs of an AWD variant, let it be offered. If it has not, then I'd rather the money be spent on making the Camaro in general.
11-27-2005, 11:48 AM
#105
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Re: AWD and the 5th gen
Originally Posted by 90rocz
Bob, I just got a set of ET-Streets, (and 4" skinnies)can't wait to see!...(at least on my 3rd gen that is, for track only, ofcourse)
Good luck.
Bob