Amen to that!

I applaud GM for taking some risks, moreso IMHO than many of their competitors. Rendezvous, Avalanche, CTS - all risky ventures but all are successes in the marketplace. Sure GM has some mistakes. But they're out there slugging. And performance fans are not being ignored, witness the GTO, G6, Impala SS and GTP Comp G. It's looking good from here!

 

I will touch base on a few issues here-

Saturn Factor- Most uninformed car buyers don't know Saturn is a part of GM. Saturn buyers tend to be buyers who would not step in any other GM Brands showroom and would buy imports otherwise. Thus Saturn having a minivan makes sense because they have reach no other GM brand does.

Buick Minivan

Both Chrysler and now Ford (Montery) have upscale minivans...so it makes sense for GM to have one. IMO though the Montana should be (and may be) axed. Also Honda makes the MDX, Pilot, Odessy, and upcoming light pickup...all on the same basic platform.

Daewoo

How is this a mistake? Many people in the business see it as a good move because it allows GM to compete in a market where they are really getting thier *** handed to them...that being the lowend Korean market. For it's size we have see Hyundai take a huge bite out of market share. GM essentially bought it's way into the market and will brand the cars as Chevrolets. The average buyer is much more likely to buy a Chevy than a Daewoo. Some people need to take thier enthusiast hats off and put on long term financial planner hats.

Fiat

Fiat was a mistake...but a minor one. What had GM scared is that the contract when they bought thier stake a few years back...thier was a provision that GM had to buy a controlling stake of the company of the company by 2004 if Fiat wanted. Many people were predicting after Fiat's financial collapse that they would...however a few months back they issues a statement saying they had no intentions of allowing GM to have a controlling stake in the company and voided that end of the contract...making this a mute issue.

Saab

What is wrong with Saab...do they loose money? I will admit i am uneducated on this subject..however if they were having a huge impact on GM's bottom line I am sure we would hear.

Too Many Models

Models GM is eliminating in the upcoming years...

Firebird
Camaro
Auroua
Intrigue
Sunfire 4 door (possibly coupe)
Grand Prix 2 Door
S-10 (to be replaced with colorado)
Blazer
Tracker
Alero

And there is more I can't think of.

Do we need Saturn

Saturn has a coustomer base GM would not have otherwise...so yes. Plus they have quality a customer service ratings to match the Japanese

Do we need the Cavalier

It's only one of the top ten selling cars in the world...with no real investment

GM's cars suck

Well to a point some do...but they got thier trucks really right....and trucks make alot more money...which now in turn is financing the new car programs. I would hardly call the new Grand Prix a POS.

Whole station wagon issue

GM has that covered with the upcoming Epsilon based cars...first one being the Malibu Maxx Wagon..With the Theda platform they have an even larger tall wagon platform...Thank you drive through...

GM Quality

Every major quality survey places GM in the upper tier in terms of quality. I know people like to dismiss it...but it is what the industry used to judge...so get over it. WERM...have you taken the Jetta in for the ingition recall?


GM's Real Upcoming Problems...

Underfunded Pension Fund-GM invested alot of it's pension money. The Stock market took a **** and they lost some of it instead of gaining. Now they have to take money off thier bottom line to pay into it. Every one of the big three has this issue...GM to a larger extent simply because it is larger..

Upcoming UAW Contract-To end the strike of the last contract GM gave UAW some huge concessions...now they are gonna have to give some up in tough economic times. They are going to have to pay a co-pay on perscriptions and allow some excess capacity to be diminished..or else as Lee Iaccoa told Chrylsers unions in the 80's "We will all be without jobs".

 

But at what cost? The money invested into Saturn has had a direct impact on the demise of Oldsmobile (in combo with GM's absolutely inept Old's marketing), and the lack of fresh Chevrolet cars over the past decade. I remember reading somewhere that launching and marketing Saturn cost GM $10 BILLION in total cost.

I think that $10B could have been spent more wisely.

 

Minor clarification: the put option on Fiat Auto is still valid. GM is currently negotiating to get out of it, and one rumour has GM buying another 20% (for 40% in total) in exchange for Fiat cancelling the put.

(And I think you mean "moot" issue )

 

Originally posted by formula79

Saturn Factor- Most uninformed car buyers don't know Saturn is a part of GM. Saturn buyers tend to be buyers who would not step in any other GM Brands showroom and would buy imports otherwise. Thus Saturn having a minivan makes sense because they have reach no other GM brand does.

So Saturn is supposed to go after "import" buyers while Chevrolet is supposed to go after "domestic" buyers with almost the same lineup? Sounds like a brilliant plan.

If the chevy's were great, wouln't that be a cheaper way to win over the import buyers than a whole other division?

Buick Minivan

Both Chrysler and now Ford (Montery) have upscale minivans...so it makes sense for GM to have one. IMO though the Montana should be (and may be) axed. Also Honda makes the MDX, Pilot, Odessy, and upcoming light pickup...all on the same basic platform.


But MDX, Pilot, Oddessey are clearly different cars targeted at different markets. They are not rebadge jobs.

Also:

Fiat, Daewoo, Saab etc. are not all bad deals, but when all are combined, that's a lot of money that could have been used to improve the lineup of GMNA and GM Europe.

Too Many Models

Models GM is eliminating in the upcoming years...

Firebird
Camaro
Replaced with SKY, BENGAL, SOLSTICE and 5th Gen?
Auroua
Intrigue
Sunfire 4 door (possibly coupe) Replaced with VIBE
Grand Prix 2 Door Replaced w/ GTO
S-10 (to be replaced with colorado)
Blazer Replaced w/ Trailblazer, Ranier, Izuzu model, GMC version...
Tracker will be replaced by equinox
Alero

Avalanche, SSR, those minivans, AZTEK, Rendevous, SRX, the Cadillac sports car, VUE, daewoo rebadge jobs...Plus, they added a whole HUMMER division. I don't think the model count is decreasing.

Saturn has a coustomer base GM would not have otherwise...so yes. Plus they have quality a customer service ratings to match the Japanese

Wouldn't it be nice if Chevrolet had quality and customer service ratings to match the Japanese? Are we going to relegate Chevy to lower standards so we don't go after imports?

Do we need the Cavalier

It's only one of the top ten selling cars in the world...with no real investment

...and they lose nearly a billion dollars a year on them. I wish I had that link, I'd post it. but alas, I don't. Honda makes money on the Civic, btw.

GM's cars suck

I didn't say this

GM Quality

Every major quality survey places GM in the upper tier in terms of quality. I know people like to dismiss it...but it is what the industry used to judge...so get over it. WERM...have you taken the Jetta in for the ingition recall?

I did not comment about GM quality, but I will say that initial quality does NOT equal long term reliability. Its a good sign, but they are not necessarily related. My VW is not affected by the recall. So there. It has been as reliable as any other car I've owned. However, my FORD mustang and CHEVY truck (which has 230K) have been fantastic so far. But I have owned some POS GM cars as well.

 

[i]
The Wagon. I'll take a car, thanks. One with a lower center of gravity and agile handling. I'll even take a Sedan over the Tahoe. I won't have to lift things up 5' to load in the back. I won't have to swing in and out of it like a monkey, and I'll make better time on my trip with fewer fuel stops.

Guess your short? Bc the back end is about 3 1/2 feet high, anyways to my eyes (guess I'm one of those tall guys). But seriously, how can you expect to pull a 6500 pound boat with a station wagon??? Not only would it rip the frame apart, but with your "low center of gravity" means your roof is lower and the boat caches ore in the wind. Now if you've towed a boat of reasonable size (ain't talking about that 14' aluminum boat) you'll know that having the boat that much higher than the car is a bad thing. (Btw a 6500 pound boat is a 23' boat with trailler full thank of gaz and has equipement in it, so don't say that weigh is impossible)


Jason

 

I believe that the Daewoo deal will end up being a good deal for GM. And not just for the 70k Aveos (formerly Daewoo Kalos), that Chevy is projected to sell. It gives Suzuki an instant car line up for one.

For another, it opens up markets in SE Asia and the Pacific that require really cheap cars. Cheap cars that GM can't build without the Daewoo assets that they purchased.

As far as Fiat goes...I really had high hopes for that one working out. Not so much for all the money they were hoping to save with
cooperative design, developement, manufacture and marketing.
Nope. I was just hoping GM would bring Alfa Romeo here again.

 

seriously though, like someone else mentione, the cavalier sells how many cars a year with no investment?? exactly and even though evryone i know (save for a few) LOVE bashing gm and say "oh they suck, quality sucks, blah bla blah", my cousin had MANY problems with his brand new civic, a guy my gf works with had MAJOR problems with his brand new civic, my other cosuin as well, a guy i work with his eclipse engine went at 70k (non turbo), another guy i work with has an accord he bought in the beginning of summer with s**tloads of stupid problems, .the list just goes on. yet these are the same people who THINK vw's quality is FAR superior to gm. i dont think so. honda=overrated. from the japs, id have to say toyota has good quality (from my experinces), mom has had 2, sister has one, other sister has one, 2 guys i work with have 1 (each), really never have problems. only they get a**raped every time they go to the dealer. ive been very happy with all the gm products ive owned thus far..2 camaros, 1 regal. 2 cavaliers, 1 sunfire. cant complain. wanna know about my dynasty? my old corolla? my fox (which i kept for 2 weeks), ...you dont.gm's doing great. sure some things could be a bit better, but nothings perfect right? oh yeah, and gm pretty much does own subaru. as well as nissan if you wanna stretch it that far. it really wouldnt surprise me if bmw finally sells within the next few years. jmo

 

Ah yes, the boat defense. Used by many SUV owners, few of which actually own a boat or trailer. Second only to the off-roading defense.

SUVs are like a plague on the earth. That said, I support your right to buy these things.

 

Just having some fun with ya But serously, I'm somewhat in between on this issue, like I mentionned to pull a boat you need something big, but for the wife who's doing grocery shopping, they should'nt be allowed to buy a truck. I think the most part of all of this is who's buying what and what's going to give more prestige (those trucks ain't cheap, in CA$ a fully loaded Yukon is 55,000$!+tx, wich over here is 15%. Did you know some people actually re-morgage their houses over that!). But, they can't just stop making these trucs for people who absolutley need one and what I think is worse is jacking up the prices bc people like construction worker who need a truck can't afford those ridiculous prices they have them at. But enough said, where going of subject Now here's something to talk about, I read a lot pf the postings in here but haven't seen anyone bring up an argument against the part where the text was saying that gm has too many car models and to many divisions. Well for my part I'm glad they do, and I'm sure that anyone who owns a firebird or a Trans Am over the camaro agrees with me. If GM only had chevrolet than only the camaro would exist, for my personal taste of styling I prefer the Trans Am. And the cavalier and sunfire, well if my choice wasx one of those 2 cars I would pick the Sunfire. Now people in here are saying each department are competing against each other, but I say if GM only had one division and one car per group most of their cars wouln't appeal to my taste. So I wouln't buy at all from gm.


Jason

 

Sorry dude, I come from a fisherman place (they put trucks to their limits every day) where people that have money just for the fun of it attach chains to one another and pull to see wich one will blow a trasmission or an engine. Now if you tell me I'm nuts and out of my mind for saying, I ain't, these people (captains of crab boats) have a lot of money and they like doing stuff like that to proove wich one is the strongest. The Toyota trucks do not last in this competition. So, around those parts you see very little *** trucks.

Jason