The Taurus is only fleet sales for 05, nothing direct to customer.

 

$21k for a car with a hemi v8 and rwd..........Not bad if it didn't make the name charger a disgrace......If they had some type of incentive to add to it, I'd possibly finance one someday for a daily driver once I get out of school, if the car isn't totally butchered.

 

RI is trying to decide whether or not to adopt (older) CA standards as other New England states have done...the carmakers and their attorneys put up a battle, but the state will most likely adopt the standards, so we'll see....

I guess my rant is a knee-jerk reaction to DeLorenzo crying about EVERYTHING realted to the Calif. air quality standards...I've been reading him for 4 years, and he gets repetitive sometimes

 

$21K is the starting price for base models. Hemi Chargers should cost in line with supercharged Impala SS, around $27-28K. A fantastic bargin for what it is.

I'm OK with the Charger being a 4 door, but I don't like the front end or the doors. I probally looks better in person, so I'll hold judgement. But why they went with this design over the '99 Concept or some variation of it is beyond me.

 

The new California standards for CO2 are in addition to the older standards that regulate CO, HC, NOx, and PM.

The difference between new California cars and new Federal cars is minimal, but fairly expensive to manage. We're talking about probably two hundredths of a gram per mile in HC and NOx between the average CA and Federal car. This when the average car on the road is going to be somewhere between .5 and 1 gram of each (taking into account aging cars, older cars, etc.), and one old car in good condition is emitting around 4 grams per mile.

It's politically popular in California to put everything on the manufacturers and nothing on the consumers, so that's what we do. It's actually very expensive for what we get. Check to see what one diesel locomotive puts out. Ask why California isn't spending money to upgrade commuter rail systems to electric? California cars using too much fuel? Force the manufacturers to make more fuel efficient cars. What about incentives to drive the existing cars less? California automotive regulations are pretty stupid, I think. They were necessary originally, but the rest of the country has nearly caught up. Now it's about exercising control over national politics (global warming) and maintaining an established bureaucracy.

 

I wouldn't compare the Charger to the Chevelle. While they were in the same car class back when they were both built, they had far different impacts. The Charger bread the winged cars in NASCAR. The Charger is the Camaro or Mustang for Chrysler. No other name is as well know from Chrysler from a 4 pass performance vehical stand point. If you said RWD, V8, Chrysler/Dodge coupe I am sure most people would say either Charger or Cuda.

 

Or maybe "Charger" makes you think of a 2.2l FWD coupe?

I can't believe how worked up people are getting about a four door Charger. I'm thrilled to hear that hemi performance is coming in at under $30K.

 

So they're making chargers with a base V6?

God that's awful.

 

Ummmmmm.....you could get a slant six in the "classic" Charger,and the base V8 318 was hardly anything to get excited about,8 cylinders or not. Geez,people hear V6 and 4-doors and they start freaking out The base Charger with its 24V 250HP 3.5 is hardly "base",anybody who's driven a 300M will tell you that engine hauls and it would really put to shame some of these "legendary" V8 muscle cars of the '60s. 4 doors won't kill the car. Did it kill the Grand Prix? Chrysler is raking in money with their 4-DOOR Letter cars,which went to the extra doors with 300M. Oh,and don't forget the 4-DOOR Impala SS from the '90s that everybody couldn't get enough of. I'm sure Chevy heard the same whining and moaning back in '94,and then look.......people actually DROVE the car and CHANGED their minds! Holy Crap,driving a car and then forming a opinion.....what will they think of next???!!

 

The Magnum just doesn't seem to work as well on a visual level as the 300.

I don't see the Magnums moving, but the Chrysler 300s literally disappear as soon as they hit the ground.

1. The Magnum was supposed to move 80,000 units - around a third of first year LX production. Somehow I doubt that Magnums are selling at an annualized rate of 120,000, or as you put it "roughly 50% or more above projections."

2. The midsized LX cars will be here for sooner or later.

1. The Mitsubishi based Neon is set in stone at this point, but the midsized FWD models (on a stretched next-generation) Lancer platform aren't finalized. That includes the replacement for the Sebring convertible.

2. A convertible LX would be at a higher price point than the current Sebring convertible. Remember the 300C convertible concept from five years ago? Think $40K+.

3. Chrysler was always planning on offering FWD, Mitsubishi based midsized sedans along with more upscale RWD, LX base midsized offerings.

The Charger is meant to keep LX sales pumped up until the mid-sized line premiers. It is a low design cost, short lead time project. Daimler-Chrysler is attempting the same sort of delayed model variant roll-out that BMW has used successfully for the last couple decades.

 

Redzed, I really don't know where you get your information, or if you just simply invent some of the things you say out of *thin air*. Dodge created the Charger to "keep sales pumped up" till another mid-sized car arrives?? I've said it early this week and I'll say it again, you are really going off the deep end here, bud.


Dodge Magnum station wagon was projected to sell just about as well as the Intrepid was doing in the retail market (about 1/3 of Intrepids were sold as rentals). Magnum has not only surpassed that by a massive margin, it is now outselling Intrepid's total production numbers. This far exceeds projections.

As you yourself stated, Chrysler planned 1/3 of 1st year LX production to be the Magnum wagon. Well, guess what? Magnums are approaching 50% of 300's production, and was never below 1/3. Again, not only exceeding expectations on volume, but also exceeding expectations as far as vehicle mix.

"Our retail sales increase for the Dodge brand is driven by Caravan,
Durango and now, Magnum sales," said Dilts.
The new shape of American muscle, Dodge Magnum, is arriving at dealerships
daily with the legendary Hemi(R) V-8 engine and rear-wheel drive. Anticipation
for the arrival of the Magnum is high, with dealer orders for the vehicle
exceeding 38,000 units"
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...004/0002203787

As for that cockamamie idea that the Charger was drawn up at the last minute as a response to Magnums poor sales, that's a bunch of *garbage*. Again, I don't know ehere that came from:

(Detroit News, March 10, 2004...2 months before the 1st Magnum was sold)
"In the past, the automaker’s Auburn Hills-based Chrysler Group had launched what amounted to clones under the Chrysler and Dodge brands. But now, the automaker is trying to carve out more distinct identities for each brand.

That is part of the reason why the company is launching the Chrysler 300 sedan and Dodge Magnum wagon this spring and waiting a year to release the Charger: so there is no confusion about which vehicle belongs to which brand.

One downside, however, is that Dodge dealers will have no sedan to sell in the interim. Dodge discontinued the mid-size Intrepid sedan last year to make way for the Magnum wagon."
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosins.../c01-87422.htm



And then there's this from Automotive News, also 2 months before the 1st Magnum even got into showrooms:

Dodge plans rwd Charger By Rick Kranz
Automotive News / March 08, 2004

Dodge will add a full-sized rear-wheel-drive sedan to its lineup next year, company sources said.

The car draws inspiration from the Dodge Charger muscle car of the late 1960s, said a person familiar with the program who spoke on condition that he not be identified. He said the car likely will be called the Charger.

Spokesman Jason Vines declined comment, citing the company's policy not to talk about future products.

Sources said the sedan will be developed off the automaker's rwd LX platform, which is shared by the 2005 Chrysler 300 sedan and the Dodge Magnum wagon.

At the Geneva auto show last week, Trevor Creed, Chrysler group's chief designer, hinted that such a vehicle was planned.

"We will be looking at a very sporty version of this platform for Dodge," he said.

"However, we will not do badge engineering anymore. You will not see a Dodge version" that shares sheet metal with the Chrysler 300.

The Dodge sedan will be the third derivative based on the LX platform. At least one other LX derivative is planned, said a Chrysler group insider. In Chrysler parlance, LX derivatives are defined as models with extensive sheet metal differences... "

And fianlly:
(Car & Driver, October 2004)
"Chrysler Group design V-P Trevor Creed says the company "planned to do the Charger all along," but that's not entirely accurate. The car may have been a certainty, but the name was an open issue."

 

So guionM is contesting that there will be slightly smaller, midsized derivatives of LX platform? I guess guionM think that the upcoming sedan that is now known as "Charger" was planned as the end-of-the-line for LX platform development?


Fact: Brampton, Ontario can turn out up to 250,000 units per year.

Fact: Chrysler planned that 80,000 Magnums would be produced in the 2005 model year - nearly 1/3 of production.

Fact: The Chrysler 300 was supposed to make up the rest (2/3) of the production total, at around 170,000 units or more than twice as many units as the Magnum

According to you own figures guionM, the Magnum is at best meeting expectations. This differs from you original post, which would have had us believe that the Magnum was doing 50% better than the original target - a number which would have made Magnum sales close to equal with 300 sales. It isn't happening.


Sure, there was always supposed to be a "fullsized" Dodge LX sedan about a year after the initial 300/Magnum launch. The big change was that it would be called "Charger." Another big change, is that the "Charger" is supposed to be focused on retail sales, unlike the rumored "Magnum sedan" that originally more fleet oriented.


Yup, originally the Charger name was supposed to go on a somewhat smaller car with frameless side glass and a fastback profile - but still with 4-doors. It probably would have come a year later than the "Charger" we're actually getting. Think of the stillborn Charger as something similar to the Chrysler Airflite concept but with an available SRT-8 drivetrain. Yes, that's the car the we won't see for a while and might never see with the Dodge badge, let alone the Charger nameplate.


As it is, the "Charger" name has been slapped on a far more ordinary car. It's obvious that the "Charger" represents a minimum investment, zero risk effort by Daimler-Chrysler. They'll make more money selling "Chargers" to retail customers than the would have made selling "Magnum sedans" to police, taxi and rental fleets.

 

Redzed, I can't believe your arguing with GuionM. Everything I have read from him in all my years here has come true, in some shape or form. Furthermore, he is providing FACTS, digging up articles for instance, that the intention to make the Charger into the car it is today was known a LONG time ago. You arguments have been disproven. Magnum is selling well, you can't stand it tha you were wrong, so you pull crap out of your *** and present it as fact. Congratulations, you now look stupid.

 

redzed, Brampton production is currently almost at its max. DC is talking about using some other plant for overflow production.

I think the idea that the Charger was suppose to originally be a SWB, LX, 2dr car was purely rumors and nothing else. No one knew anything even concret about the Charger until about July of this year. Anything before that was pure speculation.

I for one don't mind a 4dr Charger, but I am only 22 and was never around for the original. Sure, I too wish they would put the Coronet name on this car and leave the Charger name for the 2dr LX that is coming.

 

I don't think that Coronet ever had much cachet. There was the Coronet R/T of the musclecar era, but it was probably the least well-known of the various R/T cars (Challenger and Charger were always more well known). Of course, it had only two doors, as did all performance cars of the era. Back then, there was no such thing as a sport sedan -- at least not from the domestics.

Challenger is maybe not such a great name right now, as it's less than two years since the most recent Shuttle disaster (even though the it the Challenger went down in 1986).

I still believe that the modern interpretation of the old Charger fits very well on a four door performance sedan. And I also remember that lots and lots of Chargers were sold with wimpy 318 2v engines, that put out probably somewhere around 175hp in modern net HP (150hp with low compression starting in 1972).

The 5.7 hemi matches nicely to the old 440 and 383 hi performance. The 3.5 matches nicely to the regular 383. The 6.1 is a good match for the 440 6v and the 426 hemi. They'd need the 2.7 to match up against the old 318 and a 4 cyl to match up with the slant six, if it's true that any Chargers were sold with that -- I can't remember (some old things are best left to the past ).