Anti-GM rant. New GM products WTF?
12-29-2003, 01:36 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 323
Originally posted by stangitr
Some people must want GM to turn into a low volume specialty car company and make only high performance V8 sports cars. Listen, if you want your Corvettes and GTOs, you're gonna have to deal with the economy cars and rental cars. That's what makes the money, not selling 1000 Corvette Z06s a year.
Some people must want GM to turn into a low volume specialty car company and make only high performance V8 sports cars. Listen, if you want your Corvettes and GTOs, you're gonna have to deal with the economy cars and rental cars. That's what makes the money, not selling 1000 Corvette Z06s a year.
12-29-2003, 01:45 AM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Antioch, CA
Posts: 189
Originally posted by JG/70Z
Well of course, yeah, but the designs don't have to be so bland/awkward/ugly. I'm speaking of current models.
Well of course, yeah, but the designs don't have to be so bland/awkward/ugly. I'm speaking of current models.
12-29-2003, 02:22 AM
#18
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 561
People that want a normal bland dependable car buy Altimas and Camarys not Malibus and Montys. Sorry but GM has consistantly dropped the ball in the car catagory for a very long time now. Ford is not doing much better but they still have more desireable products even if they are not better.
Things GM should do. Kill the bad nameplates not the good ones. The Cavaler is a crap nameplate. Cobalt is a new nameplate to a crap car and your not fooling anyone buying it. The only way the Cavaler and Malibu/Impalla sell in big #s is by selling to rental car companies. These cars are compairable to disposable cameras.
If you want a cheap car: Nissian Sentra, Corolla even VWs (yes ppl wont laugh at you if you own or buy one for your kid)
If you want a bland yet nice family sedan: Nissian Altima, M6, Gallant (yes much better than any GM car in the catagory in regards to styling. ie ppl wont laugh at you if you own one)
If you want a high end sedan: Camary, Acura TL, Maxima and Accord are all better than anything GM has in the same catagory.
By looking at Nissians car lineup alone GM is completly outclassed in all lower end (vette and GTO excluded) car catagories.
GM is not all bad. It made the GTO which is a very nice car. Yet there are problems. Price is too high and production too low. Also for the price most saine US buyers would rather have a Benz or BMW. Sorry GM has almost forced this compulsive reaction out of most US buyers. Like the Vette GM has to struggle to get the high end buyer even though it is a truly nice car.
Most people dont trust GM quality even when its good. But what do you expect when GM is notorious for doing things like ripping off the Suzuki badge and throwing on a bowtie.
Things GM should do. Kill the bad nameplates not the good ones. The Cavaler is a crap nameplate. Cobalt is a new nameplate to a crap car and your not fooling anyone buying it. The only way the Cavaler and Malibu/Impalla sell in big #s is by selling to rental car companies. These cars are compairable to disposable cameras.
If you want a cheap car: Nissian Sentra, Corolla even VWs (yes ppl wont laugh at you if you own or buy one for your kid)
If you want a bland yet nice family sedan: Nissian Altima, M6, Gallant (yes much better than any GM car in the catagory in regards to styling. ie ppl wont laugh at you if you own one)
If you want a high end sedan: Camary, Acura TL, Maxima and Accord are all better than anything GM has in the same catagory.
By looking at Nissians car lineup alone GM is completly outclassed in all lower end (vette and GTO excluded) car catagories.
GM is not all bad. It made the GTO which is a very nice car. Yet there are problems. Price is too high and production too low. Also for the price most saine US buyers would rather have a Benz or BMW. Sorry GM has almost forced this compulsive reaction out of most US buyers. Like the Vette GM has to struggle to get the high end buyer even though it is a truly nice car.
Most people dont trust GM quality even when its good. But what do you expect when GM is notorious for doing things like ripping off the Suzuki badge and throwing on a bowtie.
Last edited by Ponykillr; 12-29-2003 at 02:25 AM.
12-29-2003, 02:31 AM
#20
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 561
At least the Altimas and Sentras you do see look better than the entire GM car lineup excluding the Vette. Why anyone chooses to defend GM on this issue is beyond me unless they sell cars for GM. Face it GM makes junk when compaired to the compitition in the same catagory.
12-29-2003, 02:31 AM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 323
Originally posted by stangitr
Bland cars sell. The average American doesn't want some flashy coupe, they want a dependable, anonymous looking car to get from point A to point B. Malibus and Impalas sell like hotcakes for a reason.
Bland cars sell. The average American doesn't want some flashy coupe, they want a dependable, anonymous looking car to get from point A to point B. Malibus and Impalas sell like hotcakes for a reason.
..."Because Americans don't want' cars like that"...
Anyways, I don't undersatnd how you can lump american car consumers as a group of people who want something bland and anonymous? Obviously that's not true or GM wouldn't have anything to worry about.
Hotcakes sell because they are cheap. Fact is GM's styling can use a boost, which they may be getting in the near future.
12-29-2003, 03:16 AM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Anywhere but here
Posts: 373
Originally posted by Ponykillr
At least the Altimas and Sentras you do see look better than the entire GM car lineup excluding the Vette. Why anyone chooses to defend GM on this issue is beyond me unless they sell cars for GM. Face it GM makes junk when compaired to the compitition in the same catagory.
At least the Altimas and Sentras you do see look better than the entire GM car lineup excluding the Vette. Why anyone chooses to defend GM on this issue is beyond me unless they sell cars for GM. Face it GM makes junk when compaired to the compitition in the same catagory.
And saying the cars that GM makes are junk compaired to the competition is pretty stupid too. If it's true, base it off facts, not just stuff you pull out of your butt. If you have kept up with reviews, quality tests, etc. as of late you'll notice that GM has gotten MUCH better. I'm not saying they're perfect, they definately can keep improving, but their not all complete junk.
Saying that you hate GM and you hate anyone who likes the new car's just proves that you're small minded and scared of change or anything different than what you like. If people don't like the new cars, they won't buy them. Most the cars you are dissing aren't even out yet!
You're defense is that if anyone disagrees with you their obviously stupid and just blindly following GM. That's just stupid, people will like different things than you do, get over it.
You can call me biased towards GM if you want, and you probably will, but I would bet I've owned more cars from more makers than you have. I like many different cars under many different brands, but I guess I do have on bias... I'm biased against stupid people like you who think anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. They are opinions, everyone has their own, that doesn't make them wrong.
12-29-2003, 05:32 AM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
Originally posted by Ponykillr
At least the Altimas and Sentras you do see look better than the entire GM car lineup excluding the Vette. Why anyone chooses to defend GM on this issue is beyond me unless they sell cars for GM. Face it GM makes junk when compaired to the compitition in the same catagory.
At least the Altimas and Sentras you do see look better than the entire GM car lineup excluding the Vette. Why anyone chooses to defend GM on this issue is beyond me unless they sell cars for GM. Face it GM makes junk when compaired to the compitition in the same catagory.
You keep referring to the new Cobalt as junk, but how do you know? Driven one yet? Wait, even seen one in person yet? No one knows how much better it will be over the J-body but I can tell you that I really like what I see right now just in the interior look, engine and transmission options, wheel choices, etc. These are things blatantly absent from the current Cavalier.
12-29-2003, 08:39 AM
#24
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 10,745
Well, I've been down on GM for a while, especially since they axed the F-body. But it's not all bad. The Cadillac line is coming along, though it's gonna take years to rebuild their image. The C5 is a great car, though not my cuppa tea. The GTO is a step forward as well. The light trucks and SUV's are certainly competitive.
But as far as bread and butter cars (sedans, coupes, wagons) I have to agree with some of the posters here. In spite of a STRONG "Buy American" bias, I find it hard to reccomend any of the GM mainstream cars. About the only exception are the base model Saturns. The cars are just ok, at best. They come close to their competition, but to succeed in this market GM's products need to be BETTER than their competitors to overcome years of crappy designs and poor quality. There are nowheres near excelling in this area. I sort of ashamed to admit it, but my wife drives a Subaru. She wanted a compact AWD wagon that is economical and dependable. Any domestics in that category? Nope.
Rich Krause
But as far as bread and butter cars (sedans, coupes, wagons) I have to agree with some of the posters here. In spite of a STRONG "Buy American" bias, I find it hard to reccomend any of the GM mainstream cars. About the only exception are the base model Saturns. The cars are just ok, at best. They come close to their competition, but to succeed in this market GM's products need to be BETTER than their competitors to overcome years of crappy designs and poor quality. There are nowheres near excelling in this area. I sort of ashamed to admit it, but my wife drives a Subaru. She wanted a compact AWD wagon that is economical and dependable. Any domestics in that category? Nope.
Rich Krause
12-29-2003, 09:03 AM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,327
Originally posted by rskrause
But as far as bread and butter cars (sedans, coupes, wagons) I have to agree with some of the posters here. In spite of a STRONG "Buy American" bias, I find it hard to reccomend any of the GM mainstream cars. About the only exception are the base model Saturns. The cars are just ok, at best. They come close to their competition, but to succeed in this market GM's products need to be BETTER than their competitors to overcome years of crappy designs and poor quality. There are nowheres near excelling in this area.
But as far as bread and butter cars (sedans, coupes, wagons) I have to agree with some of the posters here. In spite of a STRONG "Buy American" bias, I find it hard to reccomend any of the GM mainstream cars. About the only exception are the base model Saturns. The cars are just ok, at best. They come close to their competition, but to succeed in this market GM's products need to be BETTER than their competitors to overcome years of crappy designs and poor quality. There are nowheres near excelling in this area.
I'm under the impression that the only way GM is capable of selling as many Montes, Imapallas, Malibus and such as they do is through their incentives. GM will offer $4000 rebates on everything but the Vette, and Caddies. If they put out better products I dont think all of those incentives would be necessary.
12-29-2003, 09:43 AM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 2,926
Originally posted by stangitr
Bland cars sell. The average American doesn't want some flashy coupe, they want a dependable, anonymous looking car to get from point A to point B. Malibus and Impalas sell like hotcakes for a reason.
Bland cars sell. The average American doesn't want some flashy coupe, they want a dependable, anonymous looking car to get from point A to point B. Malibus and Impalas sell like hotcakes for a reason.
12-29-2003, 09:47 AM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 2,926
Originally posted by rskrause
But as far as bread and butter cars (sedans, coupes, wagons) I have to agree with some of the posters here. In spite of a STRONG "Buy American" bias, I find it hard to reccomend any of the GM mainstream cars. About the only exception are the base model Saturns. The cars are just ok, at best. They come close to their competition, but to succeed in this market GM's products need to be BETTER than their competitors to overcome years of crappy designs and poor quality. There are nowheres near excelling in this area. I sort of ashamed to admit it, but my wife drives a Subaru. She wanted a compact AWD wagon that is economical and dependable. Any domestics in that category? Nope.
But as far as bread and butter cars (sedans, coupes, wagons) I have to agree with some of the posters here. In spite of a STRONG "Buy American" bias, I find it hard to reccomend any of the GM mainstream cars. About the only exception are the base model Saturns. The cars are just ok, at best. They come close to their competition, but to succeed in this market GM's products need to be BETTER than their competitors to overcome years of crappy designs and poor quality. There are nowheres near excelling in this area. I sort of ashamed to admit it, but my wife drives a Subaru. She wanted a compact AWD wagon that is economical and dependable. Any domestics in that category? Nope.
12-29-2003, 09:59 AM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 226
Personally, I hate the new styling of the Japanese cars. Especially the new Maxima and TL. The TSX is pretty but ugly, too. And lets not forget about the Germans. The 7 series, the Z4, the new 5 series, the 6 series. My god, they are REALLY ugly. They might drive well, but man. Ford isn't my up of tea right now, either. Look at Mercury. I really liked the Marauder, but they make 4 different models in total. Ford is also axing the Taures/Sable platform for something new. And they have the Focus, Mustang and Crown-vic. Ford is worse than GM! They have absoultly nothing to compete with mid-size sedans. The Taures is garbage. The focus might be a good car, and Mustangs seem to be selling well, but all the blue ovel has is mini-vans, SUVs and trucks, too. The Taures and the Focus might sell well, but that does not mean they are good (the focus is, though..very fun to drive for an econo-box).
12-29-2003, 09:59 AM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 329
i really think that GM has hit paydirt with the Cobalt. it offers so much that other cars in its category dont. 3 (THREE) engine options, 8 (EIGHT!) trim levels, 3 (THREE) suspension packages ect. im saying right now, that if the Cobalt turns out to be as high quality as it looks in the pictures, puts down the performance its supposed to and i can fit it in comfortably (6'3" @240lbs) it will be my daily driver next year.
more pics:
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062827
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062828
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062824
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062842
more pics:
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062827
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062828
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062824
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_062842