A hybrid 4 base (yielding 50-60 mpg - NO PERFORMANCE NECESSARY, JUST MOTIVE FORCES).
A V6 geared to deliver 35-38 mpg regardless of acceleration loss
A TDi 4 or 5 cyl (should get a from some of you)
A base V8 capable of 30 mpg or better (not a stretch for LSx engines really).
Then a top-dog S/C V8 - shoot for the stars with it - not many will buy at that level so CAFE averages will be minimally affected (just expect the guzzler tax).

KEY NOTES - All of the engine choices above need to use common geometry as far as mounting and nesting in the engine bay. Trannys need common interface as well to permit interchange between powerplants. From the driveshaft back everything needs to be as common as possible - I'd like to see a common set (3rd member and driveshaft) for the first 3 packages, and a beefier set shared between the latter two. The base V8 and the S/C V8 are the same block/displacement to keep tooling and component costs down. Suspension points are the same for all units, but spring rates, shocks, etc can be sized differently. You can vary materials and textures across all units appropriately, and get a huge variety of interior levels for minimal tooling cost. Add trim and goodies for those willing to pay for it, don't penalize the ones who don't want it.

Entry level (pricewise) would be the N/A V6, hybrid costs a bit more but schmoozes with greenies and local commuters more. GM can cash in on the greenie's passion. TDi and base V8 could be price-equivalent. Top-dog... go for the stars... people are dropping $50-$60k for top Mustangs 2 years after they came out (I don't like it, but it's happening ).

Aftermarket would go ape-sh1+ with all these possibilities. S/C makers would be throwing upgrades at you like popcorn, and suspension makers would be producing "improved" units the day after the lineup was announced.

How's THAT for a different lineup that could meet or beat 35mpg across the average sales populace and keep everyone happy?

 

No eeks from me Proud. A diesel would cost. But boy, you sure would get an interesting combo of performance and mpg.

I'd bet a 4 or 5 cylinder TDi, in a 3,400 lbs car would get 40 mpg - and that sucker would fly. And......would be VERY mod friendly. Imagine what Gale Banks would do with something like that?!




As far as a V8 getting over 30 mpg, well you never know. Lots of new technology is coming which might aid that.
With that said, a 3200 lbs, 2008 Corvette, with a standard 2.56 rear gear ratio is only rated at 26 mpg, highway. Just throwing that out there.

Maybe a future, stratified charge, GDI, V8, could get rated in the 30's.

 

The problem with a 4-cyl hybrid econo-car Camaro or a small diesel Camaro is that they won't sell. Again, people buying pony cars don't buy them for fuel economy - they buy them for sport and style.

GM has other cars to put 4-cyl hybrid or small diesel powertrains in (small and midsize transportation appliances). The Camaro doesn't fall into that category, and to try and turn it into a small/midsize appliance is the worst thing that could happen. It would essentially kill the car.

The issue here is Camaro's survival against internal corporate resistance, not survival in the marketplace. If the Camaro stays true to its heritage, and at least hits the minimum level of conformance with CAFE, it'll sell. Corrupting it with econo-car powertrains is a sure way to kill it off again.

 

Diesels account for 50% of new car purchases in Europe. They would need to be more commonplace here, before you'd put one in a Camaro - and they will be. Probably never at European levels though.

But putting a modern turbo diesel in a Camaro would be a very ballsy move for conservative GM. It sure would make people talk. And talk like that is good. VW has created sort of a diesel subculture with it's Clean TDI branding. Both on the eco-green-weenie end and on the performance end. They even have a TDI only race series.

I could think of alot of worse things for Camaro, than giving it a clean, modern, turbo diesel.

 

In that lineup, the only problem I have with it is the "hybrid 4 base". Going by your mpg numbers, A) it isn't necessary and B) I believe every level of Camaro should have some sporting/performance traits in it, even the base cars.

 

Actually the smaller 1.4L european Ecotec is promising. A turbo version is already being discussed for Cobalt and Astra (although I still want to see one in the new Aveo5) to meet the 35mpg requirements.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=575707

I certainly don't see a base Camaro ever getting a V8. The turbo V8 would be used for the higher content versions (eg. LT, SS, Z28). The base Camaro would need to come with a more efficient powerplant.

Why's that? AFM does not have to be coupled with an automatic.

 

I have personally been in a 2.3 TDi Mercedes on the Autobahn in Germany doing 145 mph for a sustained time (almost 5 minutes). It got there fast, had more to give, and was bouncing the electronic speed limiter. The car was VERY peppy and we averaged about 32-35 mpg over 2 tanks of fuel an 2 weeks there.

I would not BLINK to have the same offered to me in a Mustang or Camaro here, in the USA, today. In fact, that would be the best thing they could do to get me to buy one for the wife to drive as a daily now.

Diesels are known for longevity - they frequently go 200-300k miles trouble free. They are dependable. Much cleaner and quieter than 20 years ago.
I'd jump in a heartbeat.

Best thing I can say to the skeptics is to go test drive a Jetta TDi here in he states. It's the closest thing I know of to what Europe is enjoying on a big scale. I think that after a few people drove them and rode in them, the news would travel fast and they would become more readily accepted.

 

My reference there is just what you eluded to Charlie.

My 89 LX 50 with an AOD will produce 27-28 on a road trip when I behave.
I can easily produce 24-25 mpg otherwise. This engine has 232k miles, and is bone stock - no mods but a K&N.

If they could do it in 1989, they should be able to do it today.

My car has the tall 2.73:1 rear axle which helps the mileage a ton. We gearheads know that I could swap them for 3.73 or 4.11s and really get some seat of the pants performance out of it. THAT is the kind of aftermarket stuff we can do to our cars AFTER the sale. This keeps GM under the CAFE regs, but lets me get my desired end product.
Next thing you know... We're all happy.

It will boil down to the carmakers having a "gentleman's agreement" to drop the HP war and cut-throat advertising, and actually design the cars to be choked-down and economical as they are delivered from the factory. Just play with aftermarket companies and owners to deliver the goods needed to pep up your ride as you choose after the sale.

Surely the 4th gens and Vettes are capable of the same or better. I know Vette guys and LS1 guys getting deep 20's whenthey behave. is 30 such a reach if you utilize a lean tune, tall gears, and maybe DoD or some such?

 

I think it is a mistake for ANY new car to be introduced in the next few years without a hybrid version - for numerous reasons.

As for not needing the extra mileage... I disagree based on the corporate average technique they use. Even if it is not needed to balance the Camaro at 35, it could be used to offset another line like the trucks or SUVs to keep GM's average mpg higher.

Besides, the environment has changed since the 60s and 70s... it's now "cool" to be associated with a sporty appearance but to show your "green" side too. Recycling, energy use, solar, etc has all become a fad these days, and I think it would be a good advertising position to say that Camaro is coming back "green".

Mustang has soy-based seat foam for crissake!

 

I still say hybrids are a band aid fix developed to appease the treehuggers. They aren't a long term solution by any means and no manufacturer should throw all their eggs in one basket.

(BTW, I do consider myself a bit of a treehugger... isn't everyone from California? )

 

You, sir, are 100% correct.

 

So you're saying I can't have sport or style and have a diesel powerplant? I beg to differ.

The black Mercedes C-230 i was driving in Germany was pretty d@mn sporty IMO.

Suby Legacy TDi


Jetta TDi (New one)


Audi S5 in diesel TDi form (2008 model)


THere's a slew of cool sporty diesels - even a new Sebring with 2.0 diesel power offered in Europe and coming here soon. VIDEO


Maybe it's time you open your horizons a bit and see what all the hub-bub is about? I personally think sporty, stylish, and diesel can all be in the same car in 2008 and beyond.

 

Baby steps will still move you towards where you need to go.
No steps get you nowhere.

I agree - it is not the end-solution, but it is a step in the right direction for this moment in which we live. And 1 thing is for sure... The Prius, Escape, and Yukon hybrids are not sitting on lots - even with huge markups compared to gas versions. I think a good marketing plan is to give people waht they want and will pay for. If a person wants a new Camaro with a hybrid and he's got the money - I say sell him one.

Don't change "the car", just the powerplant. It's no worse than an Iron Duke or a 2.3 Mustang was back in the 1980s.

 

I didn't say you couldn't have sport and style with a diesel engine.

I said that fuel economy isn't high on the list of priorities of pony car buyers.

Also, every car you just mentioned (with the exception of the Subaru, and even then it's a Euro-market car) are European cars, where diesels are far more common and accepted than they are in North America.

I have no problems with diesels. I just don't think they belong in the Camaro.

 

Oh, I agree with you. I personally would love to see a turbo diesel in the Camaro.