5th gen with both IRS and live rear axle.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Z284ever
Most autoX courses are on parking lots with lots of bumps (as is the real world). Enter one and you will invariably be tasked as a corner worker for a portion of the day. This really gives you the chance to see different car types "up close and personal" going around the same course at 10/10ths.
I can tell you first hand that the solid rear cars have far more drama going around than ones with IRS...especially with mid corner bumps.
Most autoX courses are on parking lots with lots of bumps (as is the real world). Enter one and you will invariably be tasked as a corner worker for a portion of the day. This really gives you the chance to see different car types "up close and personal" going around the same course at 10/10ths.
I can tell you first hand that the solid rear cars have far more drama going around than ones with IRS...especially with mid corner bumps.
If you like a good workout.....volunteer for the heat that consists of the F-body and Mustang classes.....you'll be chasing plenty of knocked over cones.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 681
From: Houston, TX USA
Originally posted by ProudPony
That would really sit well with die-hard drag racers...
Nothing like having to lay out a couple extra grand for an IRS that you get to dump outside the back door of your garage and replace with an $800 live rear end, huh?
That would really sit well with die-hard drag racers...
Nothing like having to lay out a couple extra grand for an IRS that you get to dump outside the back door of your garage and replace with an $800 live rear end, huh?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Sure a solid axle will always be ideal for weight/cost savings and probably is the better drag setup but I'd say the vast majority of Mustang and F-body owners would prefer the characteristics of an IRS.
Sure a solid axle will always be ideal for weight/cost savings and probably is the better drag setup but I'd say the vast majority of Mustang and F-body owners would prefer the characteristics of an IRS.
Don't get me wrong...
I'm not saying we don't need or want IRS - just the opposite - I even said we are going to see it more and more. I agree that 99% of the cars purchased will be plain-old street-driven cars that will never see a track of ANY kind, straight or curvy, and these cars will benefit from IRS both in everyday handling and ride quality.
I was addressing Z284ever's initial question regarding whether or not a live axle should be an available option. Given that SOME people do buy a new car (or more like a 3 y/o car) and weld roll cages in them, add cowl stiffeners, frame stiffeners, sub-frame connectors, remove the A/C and P/S, replace virtually everything in the rear of the car, relocate the battery to the back, throw away the rugs, etc. - I don't think they really car about ride quality at that point.
Hence my comment about throwing your high-$ IRS out the back door and bolting in a 9" Detroit Locker with traction bars, etc. I'm just not seeing much IRS here or here.I think an optional live axle is a viable option that more than a few guys would want. The Mach 1 is a prime example. That was one of the most advertised, most talked-about things on the car.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 562
From: Mich.
Originally posted by ProudPony
The IRS used on cars until '02 did not perform as well as had been hoped for in general. First attempt, shared parts, and shoe-horn fitting cost in the end. The new blade IRS (developed in OZ I beleive) is going into the new '03 Cobra and is designed FOR this application. It is getting rave reviews, and is quite a bit lighter than it's predecessor too.
The IRS used on cars until '02 did not perform as well as had been hoped for in general. First attempt, shared parts, and shoe-horn fitting cost in the end. The new blade IRS (developed in OZ I beleive) is going into the new '03 Cobra and is designed FOR this application. It is getting rave reviews, and is quite a bit lighter than it's predecessor too.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 201
Originally posted by guionM
One thing I need to throw in, being the killjoy I am at times.
Until the C5 got active suspension, the solid axle Camaro Z28 actually OUTHANDLED the IRS Corvette on the track.
One thing I need to throw in, being the killjoy I am at times.
Until the C5 got active suspension, the solid axle Camaro Z28 actually OUTHANDLED the IRS Corvette on the track.
Doesn't the Corvette weigh more than the Camaro and have a longer will base? If this is so, this isn't an Apple to Apple comparison. Those other factors could've contributed to the 'Vette performing worse. That active suspension upgrade may have just helped the Vette overcome the shortcommings.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by cmsmith
Eh, is this true?
Doesn't the Corvette weigh more than the Camaro and have a longer will base? If this is so, this isn't an Apple to Apple comparison. Those other factors could've contributed to the 'Vette performing worse. That active suspension upgrade may have just helped the Vette overcome the shortcommings.
Eh, is this true?
Doesn't the Corvette weigh more than the Camaro and have a longer will base? If this is so, this isn't an Apple to Apple comparison. Those other factors could've contributed to the 'Vette performing worse. That active suspension upgrade may have just helped the Vette overcome the shortcommings.
But Corvette is substantially lighter than a Z28... (3246 vs 3433) and the Z06 is even lighter than the Corvette Coupe (which is the 3246)
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,801
From: South Bend , IN
Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Quite frankly if the IRS is engineered right ala Corvette there is no need for a solid axle for drag racing. Mustang guys complain about the Cobra's drag racing characteristics because its IRS is quite poor from what I understand.
Quite frankly if the IRS is engineered right ala Corvette there is no need for a solid axle for drag racing. Mustang guys complain about the Cobra's drag racing characteristics because its IRS is quite poor from what I understand.
GM needs to follow Fords LEAD , and really take a look at their core enthusist . Ford has already stated that the V6 will not have IRS for cost reasons and further more went on to say they recognize drag racing community and the stangs huge popularity in that form of motorsports , so a V8 live rear axle mustang is still an important part of the lineup . "IRS will go into the TOP model mustangs only" ....Fords words , not mine .
I would be wise for GM to do the same . It would add alot more appeal to the car and satisfy a very broad range of enthusists .
Base = live rear
mid = live rear
TOP= IRS
...And , to satisy the SCCA guys/gals give the 1LE IRS well . There would be your affordable IRS car
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
One thing that we haven't addressed is cost. If we see a new Camaro..it presumably will be based on a platform with an IRS (or at any rate , it better).
With RP's previous comments on controling costs, ie, limited powertrains, etc., will it be cost prohibitive for GM to reverse engineer a live rear axle to fit where an IRS would go?
With RP's previous comments on controling costs, ie, limited powertrains, etc., will it be cost prohibitive for GM to reverse engineer a live rear axle to fit where an IRS would go?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
If we did have the option of either/or, I would like the idea of the SS being the straight-line car with a solid axle while the Z28 becomes the lighter, road-race ready car with IRS. Some on this board have been critical in the past of the F-body using a live rear axle in this "modern" day and age but now that Ford is going to continue to use it, it seems ok. Strange.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Ford seems willing to target every performance niche possible with the next Mustang. A commitment that I would have a hard time seeing GM have with a future Camaro.
But if there were a choice of rear suspensions.......I agree, the SS could come with a solid rear, maybe with some sort of "drag pack" package. The Z/28 would of course come with an IRS.....road race wheel/tire combo and maybe some Brembo ( or at least upgraded ) brakes.
But if there were a choice of rear suspensions.......I agree, the SS could come with a solid rear, maybe with some sort of "drag pack" package. The Z/28 would of course come with an IRS.....road race wheel/tire combo and maybe some Brembo ( or at least upgraded ) brakes.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Originally posted by Z284ever
Most autoX courses are on parking lots with lots of bumps (as is the real world). Enter one and you will invariably be tasked as a corner worker for a portion of the day. This really gives you the chance to see different car types "up close and personal" going around the same course at 10/10ths.
I can tell you first hand that the solid rear cars have far more drama going around than ones with IRS...especially with mid corner bumps.
Most autoX courses are on parking lots with lots of bumps (as is the real world). Enter one and you will invariably be tasked as a corner worker for a portion of the day. This really gives you the chance to see different car types "up close and personal" going around the same course at 10/10ths.
I can tell you first hand that the solid rear cars have far more drama going around than ones with IRS...especially with mid corner bumps.
Last edited by redzed; Jan 21, 2003 at 02:37 AM.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
Here is teh Control-Blade IRS that proud pony was tlking about for Ford... click here and here
If drag-racing is your thing, then yes nothing beats a solid rear... they should offer a stripper version with it.
Irs is good to get good ride compliance without sacrificing handling...
but if you go all out handling and ride compliance be damned, here is what the Holden V8 supercar uses.. im not even sure i think its solid rear axle...
REAR AXLE: Heavy duty full floating with safety hubs, centre lock wheel nuts, adjustable camber and toe-in.
SUSPENSION: .
Front: HRT-developed McPherson strut designed for racing, with adjustable camber. Front dampers: 4-way adjustable Penske inserts.
Rear: Penske coil over shock absorbers, also 4-way adjustable gas filled. Location by four-link parallel arms and Watts link.
Cockpit-adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars.
If drag-racing is your thing, then yes nothing beats a solid rear... they should offer a stripper version with it.
Irs is good to get good ride compliance without sacrificing handling...
but if you go all out handling and ride compliance be damned, here is what the Holden V8 supercar uses.. im not even sure i think its solid rear axle...
REAR AXLE: Heavy duty full floating with safety hubs, centre lock wheel nuts, adjustable camber and toe-in.
SUSPENSION: .
Front: HRT-developed McPherson strut designed for racing, with adjustable camber. Front dampers: 4-way adjustable Penske inserts.
Rear: Penske coil over shock absorbers, also 4-way adjustable gas filled. Location by four-link parallel arms and Watts link.
Cockpit-adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars.
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Anyone want to take a guess........
......as to about how many people would actually order the live axle vs the IRS (providing of course it's a good IRS)??
I'd venture a guess of 5k max.........I know I sure wouldn't!
The 5th gen has to have IRS as the standard setup.......but I don't see GM seeing it as being economically viable to engineer a strong unit (why else do it?), crash test, provide spare parts, etc....a solid, live axle setup for a car that probably will sell between 50k - 100k units / yr. total....the press and competitors will murder GM if it brings back the Camaro with the same old setup as it left with....and rightfully so.
Let's face it, the "drag racing crowd" ain't near as large as we'd like to think.......and I sure as heck doubt that this option will make or break the 5th gen's sales.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see this market segment as being large enough to support the costs to provide the old, solid axle set-up.....the Mustang can because it sells enough units to have the extra $$ to loose on two rearend designs.
One of the only things GM is probably happy about this hiatus is the hope that the Camaro will loose the bad parts of it's image and will be allowed to enter the 21st century.
I'd venture a guess of 5k max.........I know I sure wouldn't!
The 5th gen has to have IRS as the standard setup.......but I don't see GM seeing it as being economically viable to engineer a strong unit (why else do it?), crash test, provide spare parts, etc....a solid, live axle setup for a car that probably will sell between 50k - 100k units / yr. total....the press and competitors will murder GM if it brings back the Camaro with the same old setup as it left with....and rightfully so.
Let's face it, the "drag racing crowd" ain't near as large as we'd like to think.......and I sure as heck doubt that this option will make or break the 5th gen's sales.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see this market segment as being large enough to support the costs to provide the old, solid axle set-up.....the Mustang can because it sells enough units to have the extra $$ to loose on two rearend designs.
One of the only things GM is probably happy about this hiatus is the hope that the Camaro will loose the bad parts of it's image and will be allowed to enter the 21st century.
Last edited by Doug Harden; Jan 21, 2003 at 07:38 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: Anyone want to take a guess........
Originally posted by Doug Harden
......as to about how many people would actually order the live axle vs the IRS (providing of course it's a good IRS)??
I'd venture a guess of 5k max.........I know I sure wouldn't!
The 5th gen has to have IRS as the standard setup.......but I don't see GM seeing it as being economically viable to engineer a strong unit (why else do it?), crash test, provide spare parts, etc....a solid, live axle setup for a car that probably will sell between 50k - 100k units / yr. total....the press and competitors will murder GM if it brings back the Camaro with the same old setup as it left with....and rightfully so.
Let's face it, the "drag racing crowd" ain't near as large as we'd like to think.......and I sure as heck doubt that this option will make or break the 5th gen's sales.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see this market segment as being large enough to support the costs to provide the old, solid axle set-up.....the Mustang can because it sells enough units to have the extra $$ to loose on two rearend designs.
One of the only things GM is probably happy about this hiatus is the hope that the Camaro will loose the bad parts of it's image and will be allowed to enter the 21st century.
......as to about how many people would actually order the live axle vs the IRS (providing of course it's a good IRS)??
I'd venture a guess of 5k max.........I know I sure wouldn't!
The 5th gen has to have IRS as the standard setup.......but I don't see GM seeing it as being economically viable to engineer a strong unit (why else do it?), crash test, provide spare parts, etc....a solid, live axle setup for a car that probably will sell between 50k - 100k units / yr. total....the press and competitors will murder GM if it brings back the Camaro with the same old setup as it left with....and rightfully so.
Let's face it, the "drag racing crowd" ain't near as large as we'd like to think.......and I sure as heck doubt that this option will make or break the 5th gen's sales.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see this market segment as being large enough to support the costs to provide the old, solid axle set-up.....the Mustang can because it sells enough units to have the extra $$ to loose on two rearend designs.
One of the only things GM is probably happy about this hiatus is the hope that the Camaro will loose the bad parts of it's image and will be allowed to enter the 21st century.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 562
From: Mich.
Speaking of IRS.Did any of you notice that the Chevy Cheyenne concept at the NAIAS had IRS?They even had a display of the IRS off the truck.I'd say GM might be following Ford in the IRS dept. in trucks/SUV's