Oh yeah Branden, that's a GREAT plan.

 

What will become of the Ford's MSRP with all of this change...?

 

Back a few messages, it was stated that it would not change significantly.

 

Well here is the thing. Everyone makes like the Camaro has to blow the wheels off the Mustang...and that is simply not true. No more than a Challenger has to blow the wheels off a Camaro or Mustang...or a Genisis coupe. All the Camaro has to do is make people want to buy it. Sales are the real barometer of a cars success..and as long as the Camaro is selling 60% the volume of the Mustang..I would call it a success. We all forget Camaro got in the most trouble (and eventually canceled) when it became a land missle that catered to enthusiasts above all else.

I mean..it is so crazy to hear people on here trembling in their boots over a 400HP Mustang and writing obits for the current car when in terms of sales it is doing exceptionally well.

Honestly..do you that so many Mustang owners know a better motor is coming that it is killing sales THAT much? No way...Camaro and Challenger are stealing those sales.

 

Put it like this, I'm a Chevy guy, and I'm excited. And I'm not the only Chevy guy feeling that way. You can pooh-pooh it if you wish, but all of the things that Mustang always had going for it in sales, it still does. But now without any excuses or qualifiers, it'll clean the Camaro's clock performance wise. And there is not an awful lot GM can do about it now. GM pretty much painted themselves into a very narrow corner when they hung their hat on such a high mass architecture for this car.

 

The continual references to Camaro's weight 'handicap' is getting really boring, really tiring, and just plain irritating.

 

BTW, just read, 2011 Mustang Job 1 is 3/15.

Just an FYI

 

You're being overly dramatic.

First of all, it'll probably be a 200 pound difference, which is just over 5%. If the Mustang comes in a 400hp, the Camaro, at 426hp, will have just over 5% more hp. So it's hardly going to be a performance clock cleaning. They'll be about even.

Second, the Camaro has IRS. For a lot of people who aren't old-time musclecar fans, that makes a difference. In fact, I can remember you several years ago campaigning that IRS was a must-have for the Camaro. If the non-IRS Mustang with equal power-to-weight "cleans the Camaro's clock", you were either wrong then, or you're wrong now.

Third, not everyone cares about whether the magazines or drag racers get a 12.9 versus a 12.8 or the car has more steering feel or whatever. How many BMW buyers buy a BMW and never take it out of drive or go over 4000RPM? Look how many more 325i's sold than 330i's.

I know people who really like the looks of the Camaro who have been driving imports for years. I doubt they'll really care about the new engine of the Mustang, because the Mustang doesn't do anything for them.

Finally, I've yet to see any credible evidence that GM passed up the opportunity to create a substantially lighter car (meaning 200+ pounds lighter), even if Alpha had been approved in 2005.

The huge irony here is that Mustang kept the SRA to keep the car lighter and cheaper, and they succeeded. Camaro went with IRS for better handling. Yet, the Mustang notches up wins in fun-to-drive. Maybe the big mistake was IRS in the new Camaro.


All that said, as an engine and old-time SRA musclecar guy myself, these new Mustang powertrains fit my desires to a T (assuming the end result is as promised in this thread). But I'm clearly in the minority, as the Camaro I wanted was an update to my 2002, complete with medium-size greenhouse and 16" wheels, and we all know what a big mistake that would have been (don't we?).

 

If you like, I can give you a quick lesson on the "Ignore" button. It just pains me to no end to see you so irritated.

Really.



Teal98.....concur. *IF* the 2011 Mustang is all it is hyped up to be, it will be the first Coupe that I would be seriously interested in since the 04 Cobra and Mach 1. However, those of us that are waiting to see what transpires by next spring/summer are very few and far between, and in the big picture, neither Ford nor GM nor Chrysler can count on us to keep their product lines moving.

Concur with this also....

I'd suggest that Ford is pretty happy that Mustang sales were only down ~23% in August 09 vs August 08, given that Camaro is currently selling at a VERY hot clip. I don't think Challenger is stealing too many of those sales though.

 

You're right, Bob. It's what I should activate. But considering Z284ever's posts could still be quoted, it's not like I'll miss all of his public protests!

Think of the most offensive song being replayed... again and again... and you get an idea how I really feel!

Yes, I know the Camaro is big and heavy... but it also has nice proportions, handles well, rides beautifully and goes like stink in a straight line.

The new Mustang looks like being as quick in a straight line. All's good. Why can't we instead focus on these good things... for a change?

Why must one or two individuals hijack every thread with the results of the slalom threads of a few credentialed rags? It's under these extreme tests where the Camaro pushes slightly... but the understeer is definitely controllable. There is no track version from GM which might alleviate the 'push' problem... but I'm sure it still won't stop the ubiquitous weight arguments.

Fortunately, the slalom test is not what 99.99% of owners will car about. What is unfortunate, however, is that we all have to endure the personal vendetta of a certain member of this forum against a car that is setting the sales charts on fire.

The masses have spoken but that one voice still resonates above the noise from the happy crowd.

 

I have said it many times before most of the members here belong on the Corral. They use terms like "unbiased opinion" or " I have the right to state my opinion about what I don't like about the Camaro again and again and again." Unfortunately Z284ever is getting lumped in with the likes of 94LightningGal and El Duce who only pop in to throw out a quick "GM/Camaro sucks and (insert manufacturer here) is way better."

 

She's right.

 

Coyote Job 1 is months earlier.

Just an FYI

 

Just got my new Road & Track yesterday. They do not correct for atmospheric conditions to trump up their accel numbers. They simply publish what they ran, along with the conditions at the time of testing.

In this issue, they ran a Track Pack Mustang GT vs. a Camaro 1SS vs. a Challenger R/T. Took them on a big drive through the west. But they also ran them on the same day at their Irvine, CA dragstrip. Temp was 79 degrees (IIRC; it was 7x anyway). Humidity 49%, elevation 350 feet.

Camaro = 12.9 @ 110.2 (0-60 in 4.6) which is within spitting distance of their runs in a GT500, but not on the same day...
Mustang = 13.8 @ 104.0 (0-60 in 5.3)

That's nearly a full second difference. Not trivial.

At the front of the magazine, they also had some short take blurbs about tuner versions of each car. They talked about the Hennessee Camaro and a Roush 427R Mustang (not a head to head comparo, just sidebars about each). The Roush supposedly has ~435 hp from its supercharged 4.6L. Yet they only pulled off a 13.3 @ 108 or something like that in the 1/4 mile. This seems to happen every time I see a tuner Mustang. The performance numbers just don't back up the horsepower numbers.

Point being, we'll have to see how well the new Mustang engines stack up in real life. As an enthusiast, I'm excited about them for sure. Especially because, as hot and sexy as the Camaro is, the beltline / squashed glass and the weight bother me. A droptop (which is what I'm interested in) will undoubtedly be heavier (like GT500 weight). So at this point, if a 2011 Mustang GT convertible were to offer 400+ hp with a six speed manual while keeping weight in check, I'd be mighty interested (in 2014 as a used car 'cause I'm a cheap-***... ). Yet all is not perfect with the 2011 Stang. The '05-'09 cars look better on the outside, hands down. In fact, in some ways they even look better (less generic) in the interior, though of course the new car is far superior in terms of material quality and finish.

Anyway, they ultimately gave the Mustang the win in points thanks to (you guessed it) a bit more lively handling feel (though they did call the Camaro a "great" handler; we aren't talking slot car vs. dump truck here) AND interior that isn't claustrophobic / bunker-like, from which the Camaro suffers. The editors were split, though. Two chose Mustang, one chose (strongly) the Camaro. The Challenger was 3rd for all of them. I'm convinced that if the Camaro had a more airy interior with better visibility, it would be winning more than losing in these comparos even if the handling were as it currently is.

As an aside, they actually scored the Camaro the lowest in terms of styling (in the subjective categories). Challenger was highest, then Mustang. Of course, Egan had to admit that the Camaro was the overwhelming favorite among the general public, whenever they stopped for fuel or whatever. I've always felt that the Camaro needs a bit lower beltline to improve the glass:metal ratio, but that car is still just plain sexy in the flesh. The 2009 Mustang stacked up better, and even then it would be tough to rank it higher than a new Camaro in styling. Gotta disagree with them ranking the 2010 Mustang higher (not that the Stang is ugly; it just looked better in '05-'09).

As another aside, I do find it interesting that they keep referring to the Mustang as "quick enough to be fun" or something along those lines. Which, of course, it is. Heck, my stock LT1 is quick and fun too. (But it still bothers me a bit conceptually that the 2010 GT is basically matching the performance of a 1998 Z28. Yes, yes, I know we've covered it, and I know it has worked for Ford from a sales point of view, but for crying out loud, Honda Accord coupes are dang near LT1 performance... as cars as a whole get quicker, shouldn't the Mustang have kept up to keep it notably quicker than the average ride?)

[/novel]

 

You'll never see any evidence of it - unless I decide to publish my memoirs one day. But there was a period in 2005(?) right after the Torana concept, when it was internally debated and seriously so. Killed by politics and turf wars. Hey! That's a good title for a book!


As for the rest of your post Jeremy, I don't necessarily disagree with most of it's individual bits, just how you try to bundle them together in order to make your point.