3704 was for an M3 with the new DSG. I believe that was in a C&D road test. If you happy rowing your own and can avoid the heavier options, high 3500s is where it comes in.

And yes, the C63 is very capable -- probably also underrated in HP a bit.

 

Although, you can draw some general comparisons, (2+2,RWD, V8), the M3 is not a Camaro.
The M3 packs lots of complex, expensive and even exotic content which you'd never see or even want in a Camaro. So there's that.

OTOH, my personal view is that the M3's driving experience is about as close as I can imagine to an ideal, modern Z/28.
The M3 is also masterfully packaged. Sit in an M3 and sit in a Camaro, and tell me which is more roomy, more comfortable and most importantly- which has the better driving position. Ironically, the smaller BMW.

Anyway, a smaller, lighter Camaro is coming. What will it weigh? We can all take our guesses.

 

And I'm very careful about what I wish for. A small Camaro wouldn't exactly make me wanna rush out to buy one. If I represent the mainstream thinker, then GM would have a lot of trouble justifying building a small car that just doesn't sell.

Camaro selling at Corvette numbers, I would imagine, would be an abject failure even if the circuit/drag racers would have it no other way.

 

I just wish GM would find a way to build a RWD Cobalt SS coupe and sedan.

I can't imagine how cool that car would be with RWD, even if it weighed another hundred pounds from being RWD.

I think I'd find it more appealing than a massive 4,000 lb Camaro.

 

same here.

 

Minor clarification, but one that can make a big difference (pardon the pun)....he said smaller, not small. Just a couple of little letters, but a BIG difference in meaning.

Bob

 

You are correct, Bob. But if the weight mandate was reached by GM, how much smaller are we talking? The idea scares me. If the car isn't significantly smaller, I doubt it would weigh much less... but what would I know?

 

I'm guessing that people will complain that it's too heavy.

 

But would you be happy with a turbocharged 4 instead of a V8?

Throw a V8 back into the equasion, then we're talking about handling 320 lbs/ft of torque and over 350 horsepower instead of just 260 & 260 of the turbo 4. We're talking about a whole new level of heavy duty (and heavier) parts in the drivetrain.

Throw in IRS (Cobalts have a very simple, very cheap... and very lightweight... torsion beam rear suspension) and you're adding in quite a bit more weight.

A RWD Cobalt sized V8 Camaro will no doubt weigh more than the Fox 5.0 Mustang's 3200-3300 lb, live axled, puny braked, flimsy floorpan, no airbag having self.

 

They tried a version of that with the Solstice coupe, and those are 3,000lbs and only have two seats. Add in two more seats and no one would be happy without a V-8 of some sort and bam your back up to 3600-3700. Cars are just heavy now, unless they are super expensive with expensive material.

Just look at the Challenger Drag car 3,000lbs versus the production car at 4,100. With all of the content people demand, quiet ride and sefety, cars will just be heavy unless you strip them down like a drag car.

 

81Z28355,

There is a big difference between the Kappa and Delta chassis. Delta is a traditional unibody, it is designed for interior space and is VERY cheap to make. Kappa is designed for strength first and everything else is compromised, it is much more expensive to make compared to Delta. Delta uses McPherson strut front suspension and a torsion beam rear axle, both are lightweight and effective. Kappa uses essentially a gen 1 CTS IRS and SLA front suspension, similar to the 4th gen Camaro. The Kappa chassis is essentially a smaller Corvette chassis, it is high strength above all.

Alpha would theoretically utilize the Kappa IRS but be more Delta-like in space efficiency and wouldn't need to support 500 hp like Kappa can do. Also using the Zeta/VE double pivot McPherson struts instead of SLA front suspension would save weight and space under the hood. It is theoretically possible that Alpha would have 2 front suspensions SLA for Caddy and struts for Chevy.

 

Could be.


But the assertion by some, that any car with IRS or a V8 or > insert feature here <, cannot possible weigh less than the current package is false.

 

Kappa was rush job using off the shelf parts. It's weight goal was to match the Miata. It missed the target by several hundred pounds. The Miata though, still weighs what a Miata weighs. Mazda did it, why can't GM?

 

Which brings me back to the challenge I layed down ever since the subject first arose a couple of years ago...... name a car on the planet with all those features and abilities (the new Camaro has) that weighs less.

Never have heard an answer on that.... and it has been a couple of years.

Better question:

Why hasn't anyone else tried???

There is next to no money that can possibly be made making a cheap 2 seat sports car. Production numbers are low, profit is next to non existent, and the market for them is extremely volatile. Cars like this are money bleeders. Just as bad, there is hardly a class of car that has a higher risk factor financially for the company making it.

That's why no one else has tried, and when they do, they usually wind up poorer for the experience.

Mazda depends on global sales of the Miata-MX5 to just break even.

Nissan's Z uses off the shelf parts... and still needs to sell most all over $30K to break even.

GM managed to get to get the numbers mixed right to make the Kappa produce a razor thin profit, and at worse, keep it's losses also razor thin.

GM did a very commendable job on the Kappa. Plus, GM actually pulled it off.


Regarding weight:

A base MX5 weighs 2575.

A base Solstice weighs 2860.

Solstice is hardly a porker.

Most importantly, the Solstice has been on par with and often had months where it pretty much stompped Miata/MX5 in sales most all of the Solstice's life, so it would seem that GM came through on making a Miata beater.

To be honset, I'd never buy a Miata/MX5 (but I could see a Solstice). MX5 is puny in size, and I don't like driving on our higways with something that eliminates the need for a coffin if I get into a physics contest with anything bigger than a Mini. I'm sure a container big enough to hold a sponge will do in that instance.

 

Well, this thread is about the M3. But someone will say, 'no fair, that costs more'.
Or we can mention the Mustang, but someone will say 'no fair, it doesn't have IRS', (eventhough it outhandles the Camaro).
Or we can mention the 135i, but someone will say, 'no fair, it has turbo I6 and not an NA V8'.

Bottom line is, we could do better. And GM plans on doing just that.


But Miata still lives...