Quote ----HOWEVER, my instincts lead me to believe it won't be Chevy who gets the sister. (Think GS or (a very remote possiblity), 442).----

I wish a 442 could come out. But with the demise of Oldsmobile scheduled for around a year or so, maybe we should hope for a few year hiatus for Oldsmobile, with a resurgence of modern high tech muscle and luxury. GM's oldest division deserves better.

 

Well, you just completely summed up the opinion of the Camaro to a large group of the free world... sometimes I feel that my life's purpose is to defend the F-Body to all "outsiders".

Though it does seem that the Camaro name plate gets more of the bashing than the Firebird... maybe it's just because more people know Camaro's name?

 

You are right. Even if a true blue Camaro guy steps into a Mustang (or other similar offering) for 3 years or so, he will likely come back when his Camaro resurfaces due to sentimentality or loyalty. BUT, I would like to add 2 points that could interfere with that happening...

1) The guy falls in love with all the attention, promotion, perks, and hoopla that surround his "new choice" and decides it's nice to feel welcomed and heard for a change - nevermind the car itself.

2) The competition is already moving. They are not going to sit still for the next 3-4 years while Chevy is working on the next offering... they are ahead RIGHT NOW, and have momentum and market pushing them to keep advancing. While any level of performance can theoretically be built by any carmaker, the pricing, styling, and indentity (call that "reputation"?) the car establishes ON THE STREET takes time to build. If a car is not out there building that rep now, it will have a tough game of "catch-up" to play, IMO.

Remember, we will actually see the production '05 Mustangs next fall ('04). I would not expect any major redesigns in the first year or two for sure, but the NEXT REDESIGN of the car will likely be coming off the board very soon thereafter. I think it is a bit optimistic to think that the next Camaro - if one is released between 2006 and 2008 - will be competing against a 1-3 year old design (the '05). I think you we will more likely see a potential "new" Camaro facing a "new after '05" Mustang.
And to further my point, don't forget there will also be other competitors in the market we haven't even seen yet... like um.. the Cougar? Charger?

It boils down to this for me... it will be very hard for Chevy to "win-back" many of those who stray from the Camaro now, due to the changing ways of business, the market, the hobby, the committment from corporate levels, and just the fact that many are turning bitter. They feel "betrayed", whether justified or not.
There are some buyers who will always just pick what they want from what's available - with no brand or model loyalty - and those will come back to Camaro most easily with a well-designed offering at the right price. But there are also some who will have a chip on their shoulder and require GM to work even harder to earn them back.

IMO, this happened in the '80s with the Camaro/Mustang shift. On the tail end of the Mustang II era, I saw many Ford guys buying Camaros (especially IROCs, and Z28s) in the late'70s thru mid 80s because those cars had alot that Mustang didn't - styling, power (especially w/ the 350), etc. Camaro outsold the Mustang well in the early '80s, and if the truth was known, most of the Mustangs sold during the same time probably were to females. Men wanted the muscle and aggressive styling. It took Ford almost 10 years to earn the majority of those male muscle car buyers back - even after the 5.0 HO, 4-spd, and GT were reintroduced in '82. It wasn't until the latest fox-body cars - the '89 - '93 models - that the Mustang was really selling good again, overtaking Camaro sales. And nothing HUGE really changed between '79 and '93 Mustangs - design or drivetrain-wise... I just think it took that long to earn them back.

I worry that this may be the case with a Camaro introduction - especially with it being several years away... it took 8-10 years for a Mustang comeback just because it got lame for a few years, and it didn't completely go away like Camaro has.

 

Well Joe Regular, I'll just say you were one very wise dude in explaining the Camaro situation, and you pretty much nailed it.... and you don't work for GM?

Your second post had some decent guesses, but the Camaro post was virtually dead on.

Impressive.

 

That is exactly what I was trying to suggest in my previous post. I know I'll still be around (it'll take me 5 years to get my current camaro to where I want it ) but I think a lot of the other enthusiasts won't be.

It's definately an uphill battle for GM now, at least in regards to a mustang fighter.

But at least they're trying to bring some excitement back into their cars (new Cavalier, special edition Corvette, GTO, etc.).

It will be an interesting decade, that's for sure.

 

[note to self]
Call Fbodfather and ask him to stop blowing smoke up cobraeaters ***.
[/note to self]



I'm laughing with you guys, not at you.

This stuff is hilarious.

Better than a Sitcom.

 

Actually that's pretty close what happened to me.

I have been in love with Camaros ever since my first ride in a '68 SS396 at the age of 12.

I bought a '68 RS my freshman year in college. It was my daily driver so it naturally got abused back and forth to school. My senior year the bottom of the motor went south so it was time for a rebuild. After graduation I had the means to buy a new car when I got my first job. That was 1989. I looked at Camaros, but unless I could have an IROC-Z I wasn't buying. I checked into the insurance costs for a 23-yr old kid and was crushed when told that even with my flawless record it would cost me about $5000/yr for full coverage.

I then searched out for what I could insure for about the same price. Yet it still needed to be sporty and fun to drive. I settled on the RWD Nissan 240SX. It wasn't a Camaro, and heck it wasn't American, but at least I could afford it. It also allowed me to begin restoring my '68 RS... which I soon discovered was a hidden rust bucket that needed major attention. (Although it would be considered super clean by today's standards...check my link below for a pic.)

In 1995 with the Nissan paid off, I came back to Camaro. I drove my Z/28 daily for the first 3.5 years of its life. In 1999, I got married and started commuting with my wife. The Camaro then became my "weekend car".

Four years later, I still have my '95, even though I've considered getting rid of it on more than one occasion. I still haven't replaced the RS, which I sold to my brother in 1991. (A decision I regret to this day.) I even considered upgrading to a 6spd SS a year ago, but hesitated and didn't.

So my point? It is this. I have been a "Camaro-man" for the past 25+ years. That didn't change during the four year hiatus in which I didn't own a Camaro, nor will it probably ever change. I have no problem waiting a few years for "my car" to come back.

The day Chevrolet starts accepting orders for Gen-V, I'll be at my dealer waiting for them to open.

 

Maybe I really do work for them... (just kidding)

It's just really interesting looking at the history of GM and trying to speculate where it's going. To see where the nameplates come back and disappear.

Now you can tell me if I really know my stuff or am just floating possibilites:

The new Malibu in 2004 will cement it as Chevy's money-maker in the FWD 4-door category. The wagon should do well, too. The Impala should return in 2005/6/7 as a RWD 4-door platform to compete with Ford's revision of the Crown Vic platform, to be based on the Falcon it sells overseas. (Merc will retain the Grand Marq and Maurader for it's 'old people' sales) Chevy really doesn't need the Prizm, Malibu, Cavalier and Impala for FWD 4door sales, that's why I see the Imp moving back into RWD territory. Moving it back also helps GM regain some police vehicle sales. Bonneville also gets V8 power, albeit in FWD form around 2004. The Colorado should do well replacing the S-10 (as much as I hate the way it looked initially), and the Equinox will do fabulously replacing the Tracker. All the sales increases point to a Camaro return in 2007/2008. I also see a Silverado SS to be available with the regular cab/short bed combo in 2004/2005 (A Lightning/ Ram Hemi RT fighter)

Pontiac is a little tougher for me to nail down. The GTO will do well sales wise, and the next gen in 2006 should do even better, with the HP to back up the name. I wouldn't put it past Lutz to bring back 'Da Judge' when the LS6/Gen IV version goes in. The V8 Bonnie should do really well. I haven't heard anything on the redesign of the Aztec.???

Buick is trying to change it's image now that it is GMs lux division. The more I think about it, the more I see Buick getting the GS when the GTO is redesigned for 06. Buick needs a luxo coupe, and this is it.


Keep a chin up guys. GMs sales are starting to do well. The H2 is rocking, the Vette is still going strong, Saturn has brought some really good products to the floor, Pontiac's new ad campaign is starting to work, and as always GM Trucks are selling well. All this equals money, and money equals performance. When 2006 comes, I won't be telling you I told you so, I will be putting a DP on the F5.

 

ProudPony, I understand and agree with a lot of the points you make about Camaro. To me, the post I responded to was talking about GM cars in general, how nothing is interesting in the lineup. All we have to do is look at Ford just 2 or 3 years ago and you see

1) Mustang guys pleading with Ford to up power
2) Quality issues galore
3) Ford bleeding money from every oraface
4) A fleet of bland FWD V6's

Now those problems have either been solved or are on the road to being solved. Again, I didn't see anyone "interested" in Ford product around here at that time. When GM steps up a year or two from now it isn't like no one is going to sit up and take notice...if that were the case would we be mentioning the GT40 or 427 concept or Mustang concept or 500 HP Lightning around here? Nope.

 

The whole issue of "winning back" camaro owners seems moot to me. You've got two car names that sold a combined 70K units per year over the last year. You are talking about a new car that needs to sell 100k+ to be sustainable.

Winning back old customers is not the problem, its designing and building a car with sufficient appeal as to draw new people in, first time Camaro owners. Camaro sold about 40,000 units last year. You only have to win back 57% of total F-body buyers to match that. Its where are you going to find 60,000 more buyers that is the challenge here.

I actually saw a lot of 1st time f-body buyers when the LS1 cars came out. There are lots of guys whos LS1 is their first performance car, or some of them came over from the Mustang camp.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bulldoguav

Buick is trying to change it's image now that it is GMs lux division. The more I think about it, the more I see Buick getting the GS when the GTO is redesigned for 06. Buick needs a luxo coupe, and this is it.

I wonder if the Grand National could fill this gap, when people think of performance and Buick they think GN

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NC 91 Z28

Quote:

Originally posted by bulldoguav

Buick is trying to change it's image now that it is GMs lux division. The more I think about it, the more I see Buick getting the GS when the GTO is redesigned for 06. Buick needs a luxo coupe, and this is it.

I wonder if the Grand National could fill this gap, when people think of performance and Buick they think GN

Very plausible idea. However, my feeling points me to the 60s where the GS and GTO shared platforms.


Besides, how could you ever live up to the GN nameplate? I don't see GM putting out another T6.

 

Camaro needs to win back a whole bunch of Camaro owners as well as generate new interest.

Many of my Camaro buddies have moved on to other brands over the past few years. I personally consider myself a Camaro fanatic...but have been waiting for the 5th gen since 1993.

And when Camaro comes back....it is crucial that people from outside the Camaro enthusiast fold take interest in the car.

Many people I talk to, who have $30k+ to spend ,have the impression that Camaro is a "kid's" car or is something that you may find in a trailer park. Unfortunate but true.

Chevy really needs to work on that.

 

Exactly. That's where I was trying to go with the comment
"...the pricing, styling, and indentity (call that "reputation"?) the car establishes ON THE STREET takes time to build..."

This is not going to just "go away". The Camaro will have to forcefully remove that image from peoples' minds when it comes back, and that IS gonna take some time.

But it can do it if it comes back right

jg95z28, Chris 96 WS6 - I see what you guys are saying, but you guys are probably more exception than rule though (and I am like you too BTW!). Many car buyers have either lost that "first ride magic" or never had it to begin with. Their loyalty is to their own wallet, and who has what they want. And if the support around the car means alot to them, GM better have it or they won't come back.

Z28Wilson - about the overall line-up, cars in general... I totally agree with you on that aspect. I think the interest in here has changed because 1)There are just some plain-ol' cool car guys in this forum that love 'em all for whatever reason, and 2)Ford's 100th B-day is driving them to really come out with some neat stuff to help commemorate. The B-day, combined with Bill Ford's "maturing projects" after a couple years at the helm have both combined to create a youthful and volatile performance lineup for Ford... FOR A CHANGE!!! IMO, timing is everything - in this case it all just fell together nicely. My concern is what will happen a year or two AFTER the celebration is over...

 

That is crap...Ford has treated Mustang owners just as bad over time and never had to win them back. I mean the people here would probaly threaten to hang GM execs if they offered a 225HP Camaro while Ford offered a 285 HP Mustang. In the 70's teh F-body stayed as true as possible to the heritage (given the times), Ford on the other hand gave it's buyers the Mustang II. The fourth gen...as much as Z284ever won't admit it, was a success...it was profitable, and sold plenty well when GM wanted it to, and set a new standard in terms of performance for the brand. You realize how many manuafurers would kill to have a sports coupe that recieved one minor update in 10 years sell 70K+ units? Politics killed the car, the design did not. Matter of fact, for its falts, i would say that the Camaro is the single greatest performance for the buck car of the last 20 years

Anything but a half assed FWD Camaro will more than spark the intereast over everyone out there who knows the name Camaro. The name Camaro by the way is much more known then people admit. Remember the day it was canceled? It was on every major news show, plus in places like Yahoo news. That doesn't happen for just any sports coupe. 4th gen bashing aside.....,.anything with the name Camaro hung on it will have no trouble generating interest..It is up to GM to make it positive