Z284ever

I hope that you're not suggesting that it's smarter to spend tens of billions, to pay people to buy your products, and lose market share....than it is to risk a small portion of those billions, to build better products, that you don't have to pay people to buy, and maybe retain or gain market share.

BTW, I've heard all the arguments for rebates....and all the reasons why, but in the end, none of that mumbo jumbo matters.

It's all about the product, not how much cash is on the hood.

AronZ28

Consider this, with an artificially high sticker price and massive rebates, GM can charge whatever the market will bear for their cars. When a new car is rolled out and is a hot seller, there will not be a rebate, or a very small one. So GM is raking in tons of dough by charging at or near the overinflated sticker price. When the sales start to cool off, GM can then offer rebates to whatever the market will bear.

Also consider that GM has very little money tied into the development of their cars. If you look at the interiors, you can see why. GM has been using the same V6 engines forever, along with the same platforms. The W-body was rolled out in 1988, GM kept building the J body for more than 20 years, and the old S-10 and Sonoma were produced on the same platform for 20 years. The N body has been around since the 1980's too. The F body was 20 years old in 2002. GM makes so many full size trucks and SUV's off the same platform that their costs have been absorbed by the sheer number of units sold.

IZ28

Some excellent posts there Z284, and you're most definetly right with it all. If GM doesn't want to listen or do things correctly, they'll learn by their own stupidity, guaranteed.

Z28Wilson

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm just saying maybe your idea is simplistic economics (whatever that means) and a portion of those billions would never get put back into product but would have to be diverted somewhere else?

You won't get an argument from me on that one. Save for Corvette, Cadillac and usually the trucks (which are now also getting long in the tooth) I'm tired of GM's "just good enough" attitude toward their products. Heck, even the Colorado/Canyon twins don't stack up favorably to the Durango and Tacoma and the GM trucks are brand new. Using the I5 as the top motor doesn't seem so wise now. Didn't take long for Toyota and Dodge to leap-frog did it?

Caps94ZODG

HA HA HA

HEY GM you listening...

AN AMERICAN REVOLUTION..(meaning they are just revolving around and around and around and around and around and around...DOING NOTHING!!! WAKE UP!!!PEOPLE DONT LIKE YOUR CARS!!)


.man the General is seaming to look like the old red sox before last yr...you foolded us again...thought you were going to do it but nope, nothing to write home about..

Z284ever

Sure it's simplistic. For one, I'm just guessing at the numbers, also, I understand that GM would rather pay people to buy their products just to keep it's plants running, vs deal with the expense of slow/idle plants.

But simplistic or not...that's a mind numbing amount of money. Simply mind numbing. And in the end, market share slipped anyway.

Where would all of those billions and billions have been diverted to without rebates? Hey, I don't know. I'm just a lowly enthusiasts, who visits a website, wishing to buy a proper Camaro.

But I can unequivocally tell you this: GM had no problem putting thousands of dollars worth of rebates on these cars after they were designed, in order to try to sell them.

But if an interior designer wants another $50 per car to substantially improve the interior (in order for them to sell)....well, that's just too expensive.
Or, if a chassis engineer wants some better bushings, for a more refined ride....well, you get the point.

They'll ruthlessly squeeze pennies (literally) during developement, and when these products don't move, because of that penny-pinching, spend like a drunken sailor, to pile on the incentives.

Simplistic or not....that just makes no sense to me.

steve2002

American Revolution: Americans tired of domestics and turning to imports.

92RS shearn

Man if only someone at GM would realize that, things would be a lot better. You are on the ball here Z28.

AAAAAAA

If GM were to lower MSRP and get rid of rebates.. wouldnt the dealers simply keep charging more? We all know how GM dealers like mark ups.

AronZ28

Wow, that has to be one of the most truthful statements ever. And this b.s. has been going on for the last 20 years.

Meccadeth

Wow....hopefully this turns into free cars soon. Free cars for a month will get GM some of that lost market share

guionM

You're dead on as far as the money wasted on rebates & incentives instead of simply getting some good product to market.

But it's not even a matter of using struts (BMW still does a credible job with them). & it's not even a matter of interiors (Cadillac's is drum tight in quality & materials, Cobalt is class leading, even the current Grand Prix is light years ahead of my Camaro).

What it IS IMHO is GM's structure and mentality.
*The ingrained belief that cars are nothing more than appliences, despite car buying being mostly an emotional experience.
* Focus on short term profits instead of long term effects. Why build marketshare on giving away profits when all you're doing is cheapening the public's view of your cars, when you can make more money per car selling fewer cars?
* So much bureauacracy that it's a minor miracle things actually get done. It's going to take a total of about 4 years for the Solstice to have gotten from concept to production, and it was rushed.... roughly the same time it took the SSR to get to production, and it wasn't.

Think about this:
1. GM has a fairly new CEO that essentially is giving the product guys a "Card Blanche" on getting anything they need to improve the car side.
2. GM has what can be described as the industry's top product guy running it's new vehicle programs.
3. GM has either hired or cultivated some of the industry's top designers, including Brian Nesbitt and design VP Ed Welburn.
4. GM argubly has more "car guys" in key positions then anyone else.
5. GM has the industry's most advanced international hyperspace engineering and design system, that not only shaves massive amounts of time & money, but also creates the prospect of producing variations of models in different countries at once.

But yet:
1. GM can't get a car out any faster than it ever did (without the government breathing down it's back or a competitor doing something that blows them away).
2. New vehicles seem to need Bob Lutz's personal intervention in order to get the interiors they should, or worse yet, get cars made that don't sell in 6 figure amounts, but the public wants.
3. Questionable designs like the Malibu still slip out.
4. Non-car people can and do still de-rail or stop programs dead in their tracks.
5. Holden's new Commodore line is just over a year away, yet our version of these vehicles aren't likely to start appearing till a year later, and even then, will be phased in over a 3 year period.