AronZ28

When Olds quit making 88's and 98's, all the people buying them went over to the Buick dealership to buy the same thing(Lesabre and Park Ave). I will agree that their buyers are dying, but they are attracting fresh blood, new retirees

96_Camaro_B4C

Anyone want to bet on acceleration times between the 3.5L LX cars and the 3800 (with only 195 hp) Lucerne? They might be closer than you think. If you doubt, go look at N/A 3800 times for the full size Bonnie or LeSabre, then look up 3.2L and 3.5L LH times, and 3.5L LX times.

And I don't think too many people will be cross shopping the Charger and a Buick. The 300 Touring, sure.

Also, it sounds like you are quoting fully loaded prices. I'm sure you will be able to get a more entry level Lucerne for the mid/upper 20s, and the northstar version can probably be had for the mid 30s (MSRP, before rebates). Fully loaded Chargers will NOT be 22,995. That is the starting price. The 300 starts even higher than that. A loaded up 300C is in the mid 30s, or higher. A loaded 3.5L will top 30 grand, too, I believe.

The LX cars might have the advantage of rwd, but the Lucerne is far better looking than any LX derivative (imho, of course)... That might count for something...

Z28x

Not everyone wants RWD and this car is replacing a FWD, so that is really a non-issue.

3800 is a great engine and is fine for the base LaCrosse, but just doesn't seem to fit in place in the Lucerne. Unless every Lucerne over $27K gets the DOHC V8, they should have used a 245HP tuned DOHC 3.6L V6

redzed

I guess you haven't noticed that Chrysler hasn't offered a 3.2 liter V6 in years?

I can also assume that you also haven't driven a G-body with the old and overwhelmed 3800 V6?

Chrysler's 250hp 3.5 liter 24v SOHC isn't much of an engine compared to Nissan's VQ35, but it's better than a pushrod 3800 with 55 less horsepower.


And the 300 Touring still has a huge price advantage over the smaller LaCrosse, let alone the Lucerne.

I still wouldn't underestimate the pulling power of the new Dodge Charger. It's a quality car with a modern design and a nameplate that has huge pulling power for soon-to-retire baby boomers - the demographic that Buick desperately needs to get.


Keep in mind that a $22,995 base Charger is fully equivilent to a Magnum SXT that costs $3,200 more and pretty close to a 300 Touring that starts at nearly $5,000 more.


Fake portholes that are attached with double-side tape might be a selling point for some people as well? Taste is relative, and the "new" Lucerne is related to the failed Bonneville and Oldsmobile Aurora. It's pretty hard to argue that surefire sales success runs in the fading G-body family.

96_Camaro_B4C

Sure I noticed. The point was that both of those engines (the 3.2 and the 3.5) failed to perform in the lighter LH cars. We've already seen how the 3.6L 255 hp V6 in the CTS destroys the 3.5L "250 hp" V6 in the heavy LX cars. The N/A 3800 (195-205 hp) in the G-bodies and W-bodies puts down times in the high 7/low 8 second range for 0-60. Just like the 250 hp 3.5L Chrysler. We've even discussed this in other threads before. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that, if for no reason other than marketing advantage, the 3.6L from the Caddies/Rendezvous/LaCrosse should indeed be the base engine in the Lucern. However, in terms of real world driving, most buyers will not notice a difference. While the 3800 is not known for its velvety refinement, neither is the 3.5L Chrysler engine. And that engine needs to be revved a bit more to makes its power, I believe.
You can assume that ice is more dense than liquid water, too, if you want. I put a thousand miles (give or take) on a Bonneville SLE, and have driven others as well. I don't feel that the engine was "overwhelmed". Go look up some acceleration times. I've not really seen a magazine complain about the power/torque available in the 3800. They only complain about the fact that it has pushrods and doesn't sound as pretty as an Accord V6... Well, define "better"... Like I said, I think the 3800 was the wrong choice. But you asked how in the world the 3800 would compete, and I'm answering that in terms of real world performance and drivability, not to mention fuel economy and reliability, it will easily be on the same playing field as the 3.5L in the LX cars.MSRP, or actual selling price...?Again, I don't believe too many people are going to cross shop the Charger and the Lucerne.






Fake portholes that are attached with double-side tape might be a selling point for some people as well? Taste is relative, and the "new" Lucerne is related to the failed Bonneville and Oldsmobile Aurora. It's pretty hard to argue that surefire sales success runs in the fading G-body family.[/QUOTE]

AronZ28

While the 3.8 V6 is a great motor, I think it is past its time. The competition has moved on with something more sophsiticated and with much more power. For cripes sake, is it too much to expect a new motor in this car?When the LeSabre first went to FWD back in 1985, it used the 3.8 V6. 21 years later and we are still using the same motor??????? And people wonder why there is such an anti-GM bias?


One other thing that bugs me is the Northstar is rated at 275hp. Back when it came out in 1993, it was rated at 300hp. So after 13 years we are at 25 less hp. WTF????? I also believe the 3.8 could be had in a 205 hp version too. Noooooooo, we have to put the version with 10 less hp in our new car.

Z28x

The 1992 Buick Park Avenue Ultra came with a 205HP 3800 and 4 speed auto. Now 14 years later in 2006 it's replacement has a 3800 and 4 speed auto but with only 195HP When do the FWD 6 speeds come out? GM and Ford have been working on them forever.

guionM

Just a few observations.

Cadillac's 3.6 CTS is a V6 that thinks it's a V8. With a 0-60 time in the mid 6 second range, there's not many comprable cars it won't "destroy".

Sophistication doesn't mean better. The 3.5 in the 300Touring is sophisticated, but to my unscientific seat of the pants memories, the Impala was quicker & more responsive as was the Grand Prix. Both were fun to drive.

The big issue is choosing the right engine for the chassis. The 3.8 was more than enough engine for the "W" or "mid-lux" cars. In the Bonneville I drove, it was a complete disaster. It might be suited for a lazy Park Avenue though.

Assuming that IRS is going to all but guarantee GM's big RWD sedans are going to be hovering around 4,000 pounds, these cars shouldn't have anything less than the new 5.3 V8. The engine already is going to have the fuel economy of everyone else's OHC V6s.

PacerX

The LSx family is the way to go. You can have DOD or stomp the snot out of everyone else's OHC V6's or V8's power-wise for less weight, less complexity and less money.

An LSx was a tough sell on the CTS-v, so it won't really work on STS's or standard CTS's, but I can't see why you couldn't use the 5.3 on lower line Buick, and higher-line Chevrolet and Pontiac cars in place of the 3800.

90rocz

Actually, young guys around here are just starting to realize the potential of the GS's, as I see more and more young male drivers in them. And more middle aged people in the Park's, but the Century's and LaSabre's still attract those "No-Frills" seniors. I do what I can to bolster Buick on the road here by eating up unsuspecting tuner-cars and even a Monte SS just the other day. Cool young guys, lost but still gave me the thumbs up. I guess they weren't aware a Big Park(Ultra) had that kinda power.


Owning 2 Buicks right now, I disagree, while NOT "flashy" like a Bonneville with all the red glow gages, they have a solid construction, and good fit and function. High on quality NOT "EYE" frills, and high on options. Maybe the rentals were "strippers" or abused, I don't know...but my '91 with cloth interior is still faring good with 3 kids and daily abuse. 155K miles just yesterday (pull handles included & power accessories )




Have you noticed they're freshening their entire line up, definitely aimed at sportier, younger buyers. Larger chrome wheels, more vibrant colors and trims and toys..
They might be "in a corner" but it looks like they'll "come out swingin' "

They DO NEED to go back to more V8's in the LeSabre /Lucerne's, or atleast make the 3800SC as "Standard, V8 optional. My Series I Park Ultra runs high/mid 15's, plenty of power for a BIG car, don't you think..

AronZ28

I know a guy who has a maroon 1998 Regal GS at my college. We were at the track, and he was running consistent 9.5's in the 1/8th mile. He beat almost every ricer there including a turbo civic and a turbo Integra. And he's basically bone stock. Only two ricers beat him, my buddy in his 350z and a very fast turbo DSM(he ran 7.8's).

Fbodfather

Mebbe I missed something in this thread, but what I didn't see or hear anyone say was the word:

CAPACITY!!!!

Yes, it would be great to put one specific engine in just about everything..but what you don't realize is that there ARE capacity issues.....as some of our newer engines come on-line, the older ones WILL go away.

As to the 3800 engine, go look up the number of awards the engine has received over the years. Yes, it's old, but it's a work horse and it gets the job done....AND....many of our older buyers want assurances that the drive train is tried and tested.......

It isn't being marketed to 99% of the people on this site....so before you go having a stroke, understand the target market.

I am NOT saying that the target doesn't deserve something else......I'm saying they are telling us (and believe me...I've talked to a LOT of them) that the 3800 engine is what they're looking for.

PacerX

Funny thing about Buick buyers...

They're absolutely RABID about their love of Buick.

I've seen enough clinics to watch it over and over. It's weird.

AronZ28

Old people don't like change.