redzed

It's pretty obvious that the "new" G-body based Buick Lucerne is doing double duty as a replacement for both the LeSabre and the Park Avenue - and maybe it might just pick up a few Bonneville buyers as well. How can the base V6 car compete with Dodge's new $22,995 Charger? By the same token, how can the Northstar equipped model compete with the $33K+ Chrysler 300C?

I know that someone is about to argue that old folks just won't buy a RWD car, but that still leaves me wondering how Buick plans on competing head on with Toyota's sub-$27 Avalon. Even in the "traditional" full-sized FWD market, Buick doesn't look especially competitive anymore.

How does GM expect the Buick Lucerne to compete?

I'm looking for answers that don't involve rebates, incentives or fleet sales!

Chuck!

I still cant pronouce the damn name.

redzed

Lucerne is a town in Switzerland. Bob Lutz is Swiss. I've been to Switzerland and it's a boring country.

Chris 96 WS6

I don't know what planet that person would be from. IMO old folks won't buy FWD, which is why they all buy Crown Vic and Grand Marquis and would still be buying Caprices if GM hadn't pulled the rug out from under them.

Maybe you are talking about old and I'm talking about really-old?

redzed

That might be it. However, I do know some pretty-darned-old people who apparently bought into the mid-1980s FWD marketing. There are geezers who'll swear "uphill 'n down" that FWD is "just plain better in the snow."

Of course, for that sort of "senior citizen" there's always the new 2005 Avalon.

94_Z28_ragtop

My guess is that older buyers (60+) tend to be more loyal to American brands and less willing to change. Still, I thought GM was making a big push to make their sticker prices more realistic. If the Northstar version is really $40K, it's about $5K overpriced.

Jason E

Oh come on now red, give it a rest on the FWD thing. We've been through this, and you even agreed with me that FWD is a better thing in snow, and that snows and studded snows are a PITA. I think its the only thing we HAVE agreed on. I already know Chrysler 300 owners who have traded their cars in after one New England winter. As I have always said, people CAN drive RWD in snow...but many people don't WANT to. I happen to belong to this group as well.

As for the 195hp for $30k thing? I guess we agree there too...its a joke. One thing I can say is that people in the Avalon/Lucerne class typically don't care about HP too much. As long as the car gets out of its own way, that's all that matters. In that sense, the 3800 is fine. I've driven a ton of Bonnevilles, and for what their owners use them for, the 3800 is powerful enough, great on gas and as reliable as the sun. But the Avalon has a clear advantage with those who actually pay attention to HP ratings. What REALLY pisses me off is that GM didn't spend the extra $600-800 to put the 3.6 in they use in the damn LaCrosse!!!! At $30k, this is the best GM figures it needs to give? Bull****. GM will add the 3.6 in 3 years, after everyone has forgotten about it, laughed at it and scorned it in the media, and will kill it after year 5. Exaggerating? Sure...but its happened before, and we all know it.

At $40k I think the Northstar is fine. Its not class leading, but its competitive. I've driven Bonneville GXPs, and the last thing you think when you get out of one is "boy, is that car slow." Think target market here, red....

AronZ28

I thought the 3800 V6 was going away to make room for the "high value" 3500 and 3900 V6. I also agree that it is complete and utter bullsh!t to offer this motor in a $30,000 car. For a $20,000 car I can swallow it, but at this price, you can get a 345 Hemi in your 300c for 3k more.

Redzed, where did you get that pricing info???? The Buick website didn't have anything other than pictures

redzed

I assume that someone at GM will be smart enough to keep the 3800-powered Buick Lucernes out of the press fleet. At least, I hope there's someone smart enought to make sure the slow-poke 195hp V6 Lucerne away from the press launch.

I guess in a best case scenario, the base Lucerne will be entirely ignored by the media instead of being "laughed at" and "scorned."


Was the Northstar powered second generation Oldsmobile Aurora "competitive?" What about the short lived Bonneville GXP?

The Buick Lucerne is GM's third attempt at an overpriced non-Cadillac Northstar powered G-body. Three times lucky, right? Not a chance.

redzed

Old news. The 3800 stays - for a while. There are plenty of mysteries when it comes to GM Powertrain. Know why the Equinox/Torrent is getting an ancient Chinese produced 3400 V6?

...Or you'll soon be able to get a 340hp Dodge Charger RT for the same $30K as a 195hp Buick Lucerne. Trust me, the ride of the Charger will be soft enough to satisfy a current LeSabre owner.

Scary, isn't it?


It's pretty much public conjecture. One (or more) of the car mags (C&D?) have already published similar figures.

Of course, I'd say there isn't much "conjecture" when it comes to pricing of the Lucerne. GM is bound to price the Lucerne above the LaCrosse. The current base LaCrosse can't touch the value of the new base Charger and consider that the top-of-the-line LaCrosse already has an MSRP in Chrysler 300C territory.

Scary isn't it?

dav305z

How will it compete? The short answer is it won't. The long answer is that it will sell, but no where close to $40,000. I've said this before, but I can't understand why GM prices there cars in such a way that they need huge rebates just to be competitive.

90rocz

Quality and Dependability, 2 things Chrysler's not up to Buick's level on.
And Luxurious-ness, the New Quiet design, the technologies in the climate control, traction control, ride control even 240Watt XM stereo systems...etc.
I own 2 Buicks right now, both a cut-above any other GM offering both in fit & finish and build quality, materials, especially inside. My '95 has heated seats and mirrors, separate climate controls, am/fm/cass/cd+6spkrs, computer/valve adjusted strut ride control, rear load leveling air-bags, pillow-top seats, Memory seat/mirror adjustments per key remote...etc..etc..
The doors close and seal better, is quieter, servicability easier thanks to more thoughtful layouts of components, and 26+MPG even with the SuperCharged version.
Comparing them to Chryslers current offering is just "Apples to Oranges" in my book, maybe you need to own one to see???

PacerX

Except for Cadillac.

As it should be.

guionM

Buick will compete for 3 reasons.

1. Buick has one of the most brand loyal customers of any make. That's why Buick hasn't gone the way of Oldsmobile, despite selling fewer cars than Olds did when the decision was made to shut it down.

2. Buick has GM's higest quality rating, and one of the highest quality rating of any car sold in the US (yes, including foreign cars).

3. Buick is aimed at older, more conservative buyers. The 300 is attracting an amazing number of cross section buyers while Buick is aimed at old golfers. But Buick is also actually very close as marketing itself as a dependable, good looking applience like Toyota. If Buick gets it's footing, it could be every bit as successful as boring overated Toyota.

BTW: You probally won't find Dodge & Buick buyers cross shopping with each other. Buick-Chrysler-Mercury or Chevy-Dodge-Ford-Pontiac, sure. Charger & Lecerne, not likely.

I suspect either these people are in the minority or you live in a unique part of the country. There may be a few oddballs that buy a $25-30K car and trade it in within months owing far more than the car's value and carry that difference to another car where they'll also owe more than the car's worth, but I'll bet that's the exception rather than the norm, right?

Chrysler has a pretty impressive traction control program that enables the car to get along extraordinary well in snow compared to FWD. It's nothing new, GM's had that technology since the C5 came out. Scott also frequently refered to a video showing a GM test where a Camaro is going through stuff that got an FWD Impala stuck. I suspect anyone who can't get around in a 300 in the winter should be driving an AWD or an SUV.

You haven't checked up on the 300 & Magnum lately, have you?

redzed

Actually, the failed transformation and eventual death of Oldsmobile helped to bolster Buick. However, Buick is chasing a disappearing demographic of blue haired, early bird special dining senior citizens. Buick will pass away along with the fading generation of Buick owners.



Having sampled more than a few Buick rental cars - including the Park Avenue - I can honestly state that Buicks aren't what I'd call "quality" cars. My Park Ave experience was similar to your experience with the Bonneville. The sheer mediocrity of my experience is part of the reason I bought my Japanese-branded vehicle.


1. The 300 has an amazing "cross section of buyers" because of the fundimentally appealing product and huge price spread. (Maybe the Chrysler 300 has too wide a price spread, much like the outgoing Passat?)

2. I know how Buick is marketing itself. I don't buy into the JD Power's survey hype. I don't believe that Tiger Woods would drive -or be seen anywhere near - a Buick if they didn't pay him.

3. I'd say that the 2005 Avalon proves that Toyota can produce a better Buick than Buick could ever manage.





I guess you haven't noticed that Chrysler nameplate no longer belongs in the same category as the fading Buick and Mercury brands. Chrysler is headed back towards pre-Iacocca/K-car levels of prestige. Buick and Mercury are headed nowhere more quickly than you think. I'd also argue that Pontiac is about to spiral away from the volume nameplate status of Chevrolet, Dodge or Ford.....

The whole point is that Buick lacks both the image and the products to back up premium pricing.