Why WON'T Vortex Devices Like This Work...
04-05-2004, 04:07 AM
#1
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: from the land of Justin Wilson and Huey Long!
Posts: 173
Why WON'T Vortex Devices Like This Work...
I suspect inlet vortex devices (and now I found an exhaust outlet vortex device) can't possibly work. Never the less...thousands of consumers throw their $$$'s away on snake oil promises such as these. Explain to me (technically) why you could never get a vortex flow through an intake or exhaust system that would help make higher hp or increase fuel milage. I would really like a flow theory discussion on this subject. I see where Hot Rod Magazine or some other publication featured a simular device on their cover. What gives with this?...
04-05-2004, 09:16 AM
#2
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
Links to Tornado tests (carb model)
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_1.jpg
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_Dyno_Test_4.jpg
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_Dyno_Test_2.jpg
FlowBench testing of carb model Tornado with only Tornado on FlowBench with digital swirl meter produced tremendous swirl
but when Tornado was attached ontop of real carb on FlowBench
absolutely "NO swirl" was measured below throttle plates
the 4 carb bores effectively reduced the tremendous swirl to zero
however, in all dyno tests with gasoline carbs, there were
very small HP/TQ gains
the swirl must help atomize mixture just in vicinity of carb boosters ....must be reason of small gains , as no swirl makes it past throttle plates
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_1.jpg
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_Dyno_Test_4.jpg
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_Dyno_Test_2.jpg
FlowBench testing of carb model Tornado with only Tornado on FlowBench with digital swirl meter produced tremendous swirl
but when Tornado was attached ontop of real carb on FlowBench
absolutely "NO swirl" was measured below throttle plates
the 4 carb bores effectively reduced the tremendous swirl to zero
however, in all dyno tests with gasoline carbs, there were
very small HP/TQ gains
the swirl must help atomize mixture just in vicinity of carb boosters ....must be reason of small gains , as no swirl makes it past throttle plates
04-05-2004, 10:53 AM
#3
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,591
This was posted before by Brent Franker (not me 
)
)
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
just did a very quick initial test of Tornado on
SuperFlow SF-600 flowbench
test was just on flowfixture mounted ontop of
digital Swirl-Tester ...no carb or air cleaner , test was
just to see effects of Tornado only
Results = immediately "ClockWise Swirl" was achieved
gradually raised test pressure in inches of water to
2.000" H2O where clockwise swirl maxed out my swirl meter's capacity at 16 to 18 inch/ounces of torque coming in at 2.00
thats 2.000" inches of water , swirl will be tremendous at
2.000" inches of Mercury Hg., beyond my test capabities
to measure any further increases in swirl -torque past
18 inch/ounces
quick initial flow restrictions with ONLY Tornado were NONE
no flow losses , CFM readings remained unchanged
next will begin flow testing with carb, air cleaner, intake manifold, head as total induction system
results to follow later tonight
_______________________________________
just finished more "Tornado" FlowBench tests
flowed Tornado on QJet and Holley 750 double-pumper
attached to Edelbrock Victor "E" SBC intake
on a GM #041x Super Stock max-ported head
Results=
absolutely "NO" difference measureable with
Tornado or without Tornado , when entire
induction system path was flow tested !
The overwhelming cylinder head's intake port
bias influenced Swirl-torque and orientation
(Clockwise or CounterClockwise)
...with or without Tornado in place made no
differences in swirl-torque or flow CFM
--------------------------------------------------
Next, removed cyl. head, intake manifold from
flowbench....then flowtested the carburetor
by itself to see if Tornado would create
measureable swirl
Results=
at most the Tornado created Clockwise swirl
approx. bouncing between ZERO and .20 inch/ounces
of swirl torque,..when measured flowing thru carb
I was pretty amazed when i 1st flowtested the
Tornado by itself on just the flowfixture
the amount of swirl torque was amazing !!!
it maxed-out my Swirl-Meter at only 2.000 inches of
H2O test pressure !
However when the entire induction system path was
flowtested with the Tornado as a "UNIT"
the extreme swirl-effect of the Tornado vanished,
completely unmeasurable on my flowbench !!
I increased flow test pressure to as much as
36.0 inches water..still no increase in any measureable
swirl induced by the TORNADO ...very disappointing !
i then had the idea to flowtest the Tornado just
on the carb by itself....i thought surely i would
see very large swirl readings with the Tornado .
Again, very disappointing, the swirl increases
were barely measureable , bouncing between
0.000 inch/ounces -to- 0.20 inch/ounces of swirl-torque
even if test pressure was increased all the way to
6.000 inches of water !
the carb bores, venturis, throttle-plates/butterflys
overwhelmingly canceled out Tornado's swirl !
even with carb butterfly all the way opened,
no changes in Tornado swirl effects.
if the carb itself is just about totally
"negating" the Tornado's swirl effects,
i can easily see why when the entire induction
path was tested , no recordable Tornado swirl effects
were seen .
Very disappointing 1st flow tests .
Will still try out Tornado on 3 dyno test engines
this coming weekend and 1/4 mile drag tests
and mileage test to follow in next weeks .
Will post results as they happen .
PS- about the only good thing i can say so far
is the Tornado did not cause a flow restriction
in all my tests . Flow CFM remained unchanged.
just did a very quick initial test of Tornado on
SuperFlow SF-600 flowbench
test was just on flowfixture mounted ontop of
digital Swirl-Tester ...no carb or air cleaner , test was
just to see effects of Tornado only
Results = immediately "ClockWise Swirl" was achieved
gradually raised test pressure in inches of water to
2.000" H2O where clockwise swirl maxed out my swirl meter's capacity at 16 to 18 inch/ounces of torque coming in at 2.00
thats 2.000" inches of water , swirl will be tremendous at
2.000" inches of Mercury Hg., beyond my test capabities
to measure any further increases in swirl -torque past
18 inch/ounces
quick initial flow restrictions with ONLY Tornado were NONE
no flow losses , CFM readings remained unchanged
next will begin flow testing with carb, air cleaner, intake manifold, head as total induction system
results to follow later tonight
_______________________________________
just finished more "Tornado" FlowBench tests
flowed Tornado on QJet and Holley 750 double-pumper
attached to Edelbrock Victor "E" SBC intake
on a GM #041x Super Stock max-ported head
Results=
absolutely "NO" difference measureable with
Tornado or without Tornado , when entire
induction system path was flow tested !
The overwhelming cylinder head's intake port
bias influenced Swirl-torque and orientation
(Clockwise or CounterClockwise)
...with or without Tornado in place made no
differences in swirl-torque or flow CFM
--------------------------------------------------
Next, removed cyl. head, intake manifold from
flowbench....then flowtested the carburetor
by itself to see if Tornado would create
measureable swirl
Results=
at most the Tornado created Clockwise swirl
approx. bouncing between ZERO and .20 inch/ounces
of swirl torque,..when measured flowing thru carb
I was pretty amazed when i 1st flowtested the
Tornado by itself on just the flowfixture
the amount of swirl torque was amazing !!!
it maxed-out my Swirl-Meter at only 2.000 inches of
H2O test pressure !
However when the entire induction system path was
flowtested with the Tornado as a "UNIT"
the extreme swirl-effect of the Tornado vanished,
completely unmeasurable on my flowbench !!
I increased flow test pressure to as much as
36.0 inches water..still no increase in any measureable
swirl induced by the TORNADO ...very disappointing !
i then had the idea to flowtest the Tornado just
on the carb by itself....i thought surely i would
see very large swirl readings with the Tornado .
Again, very disappointing, the swirl increases
were barely measureable , bouncing between
0.000 inch/ounces -to- 0.20 inch/ounces of swirl-torque
even if test pressure was increased all the way to
6.000 inches of water !
the carb bores, venturis, throttle-plates/butterflys
overwhelmingly canceled out Tornado's swirl !
even with carb butterfly all the way opened,
no changes in Tornado swirl effects.
if the carb itself is just about totally
"negating" the Tornado's swirl effects,
i can easily see why when the entire induction
path was tested , no recordable Tornado swirl effects
were seen .
Very disappointing 1st flow tests .
Will still try out Tornado on 3 dyno test engines
this coming weekend and 1/4 mile drag tests
and mileage test to follow in next weeks .
Will post results as they happen .
PS- about the only good thing i can say so far
is the Tornado did not cause a flow restriction
in all my tests . Flow CFM remained unchanged.
04-05-2004, 10:35 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: from the land of Justin Wilson and Huey Long!
Posts: 173
Any other follow-ups to the previous tests (by Brent Franker or whoever)? ...and why would a magazine like Hot Rod feature such a product without conclusive proof of said results?...
Anyone?...
edit...Also, why would www.spiralmax.com site, who claimed primary invention rights post such nonsense, especially about their exhaust swirl (which imo would definately cause some restriction)?...
Anyone?...
edit...Also, why would www.spiralmax.com site, who claimed primary invention rights post such nonsense, especially about their exhaust swirl (which imo would definately cause some restriction)?...
Last edited by CAJUN-Z; 04-05-2004 at 10:39 PM.
04-06-2004, 01:04 AM
#5
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
94formulabz... i don't remember a "Brent Franker "
but that entire Post was "copied" from my post on
http://www.eng-tips.com/
approx 1-2 years ago
except for :
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and a few other typos
was a copy of my original post
but that entire Post was "copied" from my post on
http://www.eng-tips.com/
approx 1-2 years ago
except for :
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and a few other typos
was a copy of my original post
04-06-2004, 01:20 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
Why WON'T Vortex Devices Like This Work...
---CAJUN-Z
you have to remember that intake manifold runner lengths/diameters/shapes along with cyl head's runner 's lengths/diamters/shapes also have final and most times greater influence on flow ....so any good intentions of high swirl at begining of intake system is not direct guarantee that it dominate and continue swirl till reaching inside of cylinder .
just like carb model Tornado has tremendous swirl by itself
while not ontop a carb...the second you place Tornado ontop of carb, there is zero swirl at throttle plates !!!
another dyno pic
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_Dyno_Test_11.jpg
---CAJUN-Z
you have to remember that intake manifold runner lengths/diameters/shapes along with cyl head's runner 's lengths/diamters/shapes also have final and most times greater influence on flow ....so any good intentions of high swirl at begining of intake system is not direct guarantee that it dominate and continue swirl till reaching inside of cylinder .
just like carb model Tornado has tremendous swirl by itself
while not ontop a carb...the second you place Tornado ontop of carb, there is zero swirl at throttle plates !!!
another dyno pic
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Tornado_Dyno_Test_11.jpg
04-06-2004, 01:58 AM
#7
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,591
Originally posted by MaxRaceSoftware
94formulabz... i don't remember a "Brent Franker "
but that entire Post was "copied" from my post on
http://www.eng-tips.com/
approx 1-2 years ago
except for :
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and a few other typos
was a copy of my original post
94formulabz... i don't remember a "Brent Franker "
but that entire Post was "copied" from my post on
http://www.eng-tips.com/
approx 1-2 years ago
except for :
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and a few other typos
was a copy of my original post
Well Brent Franker is Brent 94z, an lt1 tech moderator. Don't usually see him here in adv tech so I just copied and pasted from a search here on cz28 since i had recently dug it up for someone else who asked why it didn't work. Should have just thrown this up the first time: http://web.camaross.com/forums/searc...der=descending
I think in the original context of his post it was not 'his friend' but rather that he was also doing a lil copy and paste. Sorry for not making that clear, but he was the cz28.com member who posted it.
Glad to hear that those results are valid, they sat well with my stomach when i first saw them, unlike the outrageous claims on the TV commercials. Thanks for taking the time to get real hard data on something like that which often gets BS'd about.
Do you still post on eng-tips? whats your handle?
-brent
04-06-2004, 02:08 AM
#8
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,591
Originally posted by MaxRaceSoftware
94formulabz...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
94formulabz...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good friend of mine who use to work with Dale Eicke (famous pro stock head porter) did a test on the Tornado about a year ago. A group of guys in our dragster club got together and decided to chip in and buy one just to see what the hell it'd do. So we all pitched in a few bucks and ordered the thing... having it shipped to my buddies shop. Here's the e-mail I recieved on the tests.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you work for Dale Eicke, and did you aquire it from some 'buddies who chipped in together'? Or were you implying that intro paragraph was pure embellishment by someone who ripped it off from eng-tips? Funny how stuff gets around the internet and resurfaces.
-brent
04-06-2004, 02:39 AM
#9
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
Now that i read your post again i'm curious.... that intro says it came from an email and you said you posted it on eng-tips.
Did you work for Dale Eicke, and did you aquire it from some 'buddies who chipped in together'? Or were you implying that intro paragraph was pure embellishment by someone who ripped it off from eng-tips? Funny how stuff gets around the internet and resurfaces.
-brent
=============================================
No i never worked for Dale Eicke !!
and some of the guys at
http://www.eng-tips.com/
posted they would chip in and pay for Tornado if i did FlowBench and Dyno tests
but i posted back saying i was as interested in testing this out as they were , and i would pay for the entire project .
one of the guys, did send me money one day as a gift for Tornado tests
------------------------------------------------------------
"pure embellishment by someone who ripped it off from eng-tips? Funny how stuff gets around the internet and resurfaces. "
yes , someone embellished , refabricated my original post
i actually did see some small HP/TQ gains when i tried Tornado carb model on the gasoline engines
but saw only Losses on all the methanol carb engines i tested Tornado on ..pretty strange, as i expected there might be greater gains with twice the methanol coming out of carb boosters than compared to gasoline carbs.
Brent, CAJUN-Z might know Chris Laquerre from Baton Rouge area...the very last time i Dyno tested Tornado was on Chris's wife's small block Chevy engine ...where Tornado made a few Topend HP gains, and majority of rest of power curve was Loses
this last test was one of the worst gains the Tornado made
prior to that dyno session, Chris was again present when we dyno tested the Tornado again on another engine
which did make small HP/TQ gains throughout power curve
in one respect the Tornado carb model is an advertizing gimmick,
because in reality there is zero swirl below carb ,
but in another respect, the Tornado has made some minor HP/TQ gains in dyno tests with pump and race gas in variety of engines tested so far
and when doing a Tornado tests...its always the very last thing we try at end of day .
so, the engine is well tuned to its best Torque and HP curve "before" trying out the Tornado
yet, in tests there were some gains
so far in all the methanol engines tested with Tornado, there were no HP/TQ gains , only losses !
Did you work for Dale Eicke, and did you aquire it from some 'buddies who chipped in together'? Or were you implying that intro paragraph was pure embellishment by someone who ripped it off from eng-tips? Funny how stuff gets around the internet and resurfaces.
-brent
=============================================
No i never worked for Dale Eicke !!
and some of the guys at
http://www.eng-tips.com/
posted they would chip in and pay for Tornado if i did FlowBench and Dyno tests
but i posted back saying i was as interested in testing this out as they were , and i would pay for the entire project .
one of the guys, did send me money one day as a gift for Tornado tests
------------------------------------------------------------
"pure embellishment by someone who ripped it off from eng-tips? Funny how stuff gets around the internet and resurfaces. "
yes , someone embellished , refabricated my original post
i actually did see some small HP/TQ gains when i tried Tornado carb model on the gasoline engines
but saw only Losses on all the methanol carb engines i tested Tornado on ..pretty strange, as i expected there might be greater gains with twice the methanol coming out of carb boosters than compared to gasoline carbs.
Brent, CAJUN-Z might know Chris Laquerre from Baton Rouge area...the very last time i Dyno tested Tornado was on Chris's wife's small block Chevy engine ...where Tornado made a few Topend HP gains, and majority of rest of power curve was Loses
this last test was one of the worst gains the Tornado made
prior to that dyno session, Chris was again present when we dyno tested the Tornado again on another engine
which did make small HP/TQ gains throughout power curve
in one respect the Tornado carb model is an advertizing gimmick,
because in reality there is zero swirl below carb ,
but in another respect, the Tornado has made some minor HP/TQ gains in dyno tests with pump and race gas in variety of engines tested so far
and when doing a Tornado tests...its always the very last thing we try at end of day .
so, the engine is well tuned to its best Torque and HP curve "before" trying out the Tornado
yet, in tests there were some gains
so far in all the methanol engines tested with Tornado, there were no HP/TQ gains , only losses !
04-06-2004, 07:48 AM
#10
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,591
Originally posted by MaxRaceSoftware
and when doing a Tornado tests...its always the very last thing we try at end of day .
so, the engine is well tuned to its best Torque and HP curve "before" trying out the Tornado
yet, in tests there were some gains
i actually did see some small HP/TQ gains when i tried Tornado carb model on the gasoline engines
and when doing a Tornado tests...its always the very last thing we try at end of day .
so, the engine is well tuned to its best Torque and HP curve "before" trying out the Tornado
yet, in tests there were some gains
i actually did see some small HP/TQ gains when i tried Tornado carb model on the gasoline engines
I still think that their advertising is somewhat unsavory. The majority of people that the advertising reaches drive port fuel injected vehicles and if the throttle plate of the TB acts similarly to the the carb bores then there won't be better atomization in a MPI or SFI motor, but possiblely in a TBI. Haven't seen any turbulence generating intake pieces from the OEMs lately either.
-brent
04-06-2004, 11:42 AM
#12
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abbeville , LA
Posts: 291
How much was the best gain you ever recorded, anywhere remotely close to 13 hp or 28% BSFC?
===================================
usually 2 to 4 hp gains throughout power curve
and sometimes, as much as 10 to 12 hp only at few RPM points
with rest of curve 2 to 4 hp gains
very tiny changes in BSFC .
as far as a 28 % PerCent gain in BSFC numbers..that would be impossible !!
but from carb model Tornado tests, it looks like theres HP/TQ potential left in better Carb's booster signal and design ??
More Info=> i have digital Swirl-Meter attached to FlowBench
that reads in Inch-Ounces of Swirl Torque thru a Strain Gauge
in either Clockwise or CounterClockwise swirl direction
..during FlowBench tests with Tornado ontop of a Carb mounted on Intake manifold attached to Cylinder heads, there were absolutely NO SWIRL changes measured with or without the Tornado ontop of Carb
Any part throttle testing, or just WOT?
===========================
all Dyno tests were WOT
i tried Tornado on my Chevy Suburban 406 cid 420 HP engine
...no difference in gas mileage
BTW ... original Post date at Eng-Tips.com was Feb 7 , 2002
in Automotive Engineering Group under Engine and Fuel Engineering section
over 2 years ago (posted under Login name => MaxRaceSoftware)
===================================
usually 2 to 4 hp gains throughout power curve
and sometimes, as much as 10 to 12 hp only at few RPM points
with rest of curve 2 to 4 hp gains
very tiny changes in BSFC .
as far as a 28 % PerCent gain in BSFC numbers..that would be impossible !!
but from carb model Tornado tests, it looks like theres HP/TQ potential left in better Carb's booster signal and design ??
More Info=> i have digital Swirl-Meter attached to FlowBench
that reads in Inch-Ounces of Swirl Torque thru a Strain Gauge
in either Clockwise or CounterClockwise swirl direction
..during FlowBench tests with Tornado ontop of a Carb mounted on Intake manifold attached to Cylinder heads, there were absolutely NO SWIRL changes measured with or without the Tornado ontop of Carb
Any part throttle testing, or just WOT?
===========================
all Dyno tests were WOT
i tried Tornado on my Chevy Suburban 406 cid 420 HP engine
...no difference in gas mileage
BTW ... original Post date at Eng-Tips.com was Feb 7 , 2002
in Automotive Engineering Group under Engine and Fuel Engineering section
over 2 years ago (posted under Login name => MaxRaceSoftware)
Last edited by MaxRaceSoftware; 04-06-2004 at 11:51 AM.
04-10-2004, 12:23 AM
#14
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Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Posts: 70,668
Originally posted by darthrug
ok carb model tornado sucks, is this the same for a tornado for a fuel injected camaro such as a 96 Z? will it add power or is it not worth the money?
ok carb model tornado sucks, is this the same for a tornado for a fuel injected camaro such as a 96 Z? will it add power or is it not worth the money?
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