In the 18X thread I started thinking...

Do 18-25 year old guys really need 600-900hp STREET CARS?

Hey even 40-60 year old guys might get more than they need here.

Now don't get me wrong, this is what I am most interested in, this is what I do for a job. Something that you can drive home from the track and basically light up the tires at a 80mph or faster roll.

Then the thought is SHOULD a guy who is acustomed to 300-400hp cars have something that is DOUBLE that in power? This kind of makes a moral delemia. I do and don't want to be the enabler here. It's kind of like the bar tender who serves drinks, he doesn't know if that customer of his is a alcoholic or just a guy who is stopping by for one after work. I really like helping guys laugh and giggle like school girls with a fast car, but at the same time I don't want to hand over a monster that could put someone in the ground.

So that puts this into the hands of the customer to really think WHAT DO I WANT AND WHAT DO I NEED?

Is it a bragging rights or ego that needs to be fufilled? Do you have to beat the guy down the street? Do you just want more acceleration? Do you want to have a record? Do you want to win the Thunder Shootout?

Looking at two guys that I hope will post on here.... Rich and Mindgame. Rich is from what I can tell honestly one of those guys who really WANTS more power and can handle it, and Mindgame has to laugh at the thought of a 650hp street motor being intimidating to him considering his other toys. These guys I think can quantify what you should have and what you shouldn't have in a street car.

I have three customers of mine that come to mind.... All of them I feel are getting or already have what they want and can use, and maybe a little bit more. They range from younger than me to closer to my fathers age and in HP levels from 600-1100+. How much is too much?

I still come back to my experience with racing schools and fast cars. I've thought for a long time about what I would like for a personal motor in my cars, knowing the use, the technology I would HAVE to put into it and my abilities and I always come back to a 600-700hp NA street small block in a 3300-3500lbs car. I can drive, I have the lap times, fast ET's, autoX wins, and throphies to prove it but my SS is still getting some body pannels replaced at the body shop as we speak. I've saved cars from destruction more than I have hit something but it still happens (witha ego check to boot). Adding more HP under someones right foot just makes hitting something more common of a practice.

Just something to think about.... What level are you at and what level can you actually handle?

A 400rwhp street car is one thing, and so is a 600rwhp Drag Car with a cage and a controlled environment. Stepping up from there is the stupid fast 7 sec "street" cars that race for money, so I promote that... no. Do I see the appeal in it, hell yes. Only some people really have the sack to do it though.

I hope this is just the start of something here...

Bret

 

Of course we NEED it.

I'd be hesitant to give an 18 year old even a stock LT1. People in this age group vary widely in their maturity and their respect for the safety of themselves and others so it really needs to be on a case by case basis. There is a huge difference in most 18 versus 25 year olds, but there are exceptions to every rule either way.

On the other hand, if an 18 year old has saved his money and purchased the car on his own, put his own sweat and skinned knuckles into building the car then i think I would be much more inclined to trust them with it.

Considering the ease at which you can get in a hairy situation with a 400 hp car, and i'm not that convinced that 5 or 600 really puts you at that much more risk. If the person is responsible, they are responsible, if they are reckless they are going to be reckless in either car.

I've worked in bars for years too, you can cut a drunk off, but your not going to stop them from drinking anywhere. I wouldn't grow a concience about selling anyone performance parts

-brent

 

Maybe I'm on my moral horse today....

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=83

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=86

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=87

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=16

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=17

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=18

I think those concepts play well into this discussion.

Bret

 

I can't really say that anybody really NEEDS a 600+ RWHP car but hey, my goal on my buildup is 650+ RWHP and my car is hardly driven 300 miles a year. Do I need this? Absolutely not! Do I want this? YOU BET YOUR A$$ I DO! Why? I don't really know. I have been bitten by the horsepower bug for a while now and when I had my TNT kit on my car, it made 443 RWHP adn 514 RWTQ. That was nothing to sneeze at, until drove my friends 1996 355 Z with an S-trim. It made 574 RWHP and after that, I knew that my motor needed mor than that. When my friend sold that car, an 18 year old girl bought it and we have all preached about how careful she needs to be in that thing. A car with that much HP will get away from anyone, skilled or not, real fast. But, IT IS FUN!

 

No you dont NEED it. I've gone through that many times, just look at how many times projects of mine or cars got sold after I realized that I don't NEED something like that. It gets addicting, and oh well if I can get stock ported heads and a setup car to this xxx power level, afrs could do that, and converted gen1s can do this! and oh wait what about a blower or nitrous! and it snow *****. Everything is appealing in your head but a lot of times it is only something you WANT and something that you shouldn't have for a lot of reasons (safety, money, etc)

Now if this is just a drag car none if this applies, to a street car I think it totally does.

Good post Bret.

 

It's not a question of wanting or needing... As much as it is as what a person can "handle" . But maybe being able to handle XXX amount of HP car would fall under your "needing" category maybe .

But, with being able to handle a car w/ XXX or even X,XXX amount of HP comes a great deal of respect for what that power can do. Sure it's cool to lay two black stripes on the highway while cruising at 75mph and laying into the gas. Is it needed? Absolutely not. But is it fun? Absolutely . From there you'd ask yourself how many people can actually handle that amount of HP?

Honestly I can tell you that I took my car's amount of power for granted when I first got it. I can hold my own decent enough when it comes do driving skill, as most of my friends can atest to... But my first pass @ the track I looked like a total novice. I think I ran like a 15.2@100mph. 60 foot was up in the 2.7 area... Figured out how to press the pedal enough just to haze the tires and not lose traction horribly and improved my ET's by over 1 second on my first night there. 4 years later I'd added another 100rwhp to the car N/A, and was another 2 seconds faster still. Unfortunately for me I've been stuck in this relm for going on 3 years and I know I can handle more. I've driven cars that make absurds amount of power ~ 650rwhp on pump gas / ~900rwhp on race gas... And personally feel I'm ready for it. Just my pocket book continues to say otherwise.

Other things to think about are all the extra parts you'll be breaking w/ a high HP car.


Baah.. Got my A.D.D. in full effect now. Ugh.. I'll psot more as I can collect some better thoughts. Sorry for rambling.

 

I guess part of it really relates back to this: http://web.camaross.com/forums/show...01&postcount=18

Have a firm idea of what you want..... and then figure out how much it takes to do that.

One reason why I don't have what I want in my car. I can't just do heads and cam, I need a whole crazy deal.... then with all that power I need tranny, suspension etc... and that basically gets to the "oh screw it stage"..... I know WHAT I want and even with me doing the work I still can't afford what I want.

You speak the truth man.... it just keeps snowballing. A 700hp street motor turns into a 1000hp N2O drag motor and then that means another car etc....

Bret

 

Well to be honest with you we are shooting for 1200+rwhp. So yeah I do need it...lol

 

Goals are the key!

 

Yes they are........

 

damn good thread...i see your point!

 

LameRandomNames thread could also apply to this.... What do you want? That's half the key... The most bang for the buck? That applies to most of us. I like that AND good technology that will make me more power in combination. That's why I think the 18X heads and thread are so interesting.

Bret

 

Want vs need vs the ability to handle the power. I see where you're coming from Bret with some people that get on the internet with their first sports car, which they just bought, which is a bone stock f-body or mustang or even some import.... then ask how can i make 800rwhp? Knowing full well they've never seen that much power before. One of my friends is an import guy, drives a honda, never been in anything with over 300hp, and is constantly saying how he's going to buy a supra and dominate me forever. he can't even turn a wrench It's nuts. I haven't been too deep into the realm of serious power yet, but my GN was making in the 475hp range 2 years ago and that was enough for me at the time. It's a far cry from what some people on here make, but it was enough to teach me very quick that power is indeed real, and it's dangerous, and it doesn't care who's in control of it (had a couple of VERY close calls). The fastest car i've ever ridden in had about 600rwhp and the first time i felt it, i began to learn just what it was getting myself into. It even scared me a little bit. It's quite intimidating to feel like you're in a beast that you actually have little control over.

But i guess that's where the learning curve comes into play. The ability to handle big power comes with the progression of experiencing and obtaining it (or at least it should be, some people never learn). The slower the process, the better. One thing that "can be" good about the internet is that it can be a good tool to pass on some wisdom to the newcomers to the game. Tell them what's actually involved in the power game... money, trial and error, the dangers of it, personal feelings on the whole matter, etc etc.

In spite of it all, i'll continue to tinker with these things like every car nut does. It's fun, fascinating, and gives a sense of accomplishment to continue to improve on something that you like.

 

Bret must have an interesting time trying to "educate" his customers. Part of that hasn't been mentioned: is what they want even remotely possible, especially given their resources? A lot of what I hear from people when "bench racing" either here or in "real life" is how someone wants "X" on "Y" budget. That's a good place to start, but it often has no relationship to reality. Magazines and the 'net are the culprits. Magazines talk about the results (often exaggerated or simply made up) without bringing in cost. On the 'net, there is simply a huge amount of BS. We all know about the kung fu master, 6'5" 230lbs of muscle, irresistable to women, supermodel dating, weapons expert, GQ model, typical CZ28'er. This specimen of manhood (which is 12" long, btw) also drives a nine second street car, of course. Or else, he wants one that he can pay for after the government takes taxes out his minimum wage paycheck!

Rich

 

i'm 19 yrs old
i believe no one needs anything over 600hp on the street (in a heavy car, not over 500hp in 3200 pounder). just because accidents can happen. even taking a turn at a light you would have to be careful because of all the tq you have on tap. but i don't believe it should be limited. and you won't be able to keep it out of anyones hands that want it. i mean if i was building engines for a living, i probably would limit who i would build them for if i wasn't well off. i wouldn't sell it to someone unless i KNEW they could handle the power. if they dont' hurt themselves they can still hurt anyone else on the road. but what it comes down to is that if you don't give them the power they are looking for, they will go to another builder, or more simply buy a production car with that power (exotics).

on the topic of handing the high numbers over to customer nonchalantly (i know i spelt that one wrong), maybe you could have a talk with them before they front the money. or maybe you could tell them you'd build them a engine with better hp/tq power curves with better pedal response.

as a young guy of course i dream about find some lonely stretch of highway or toll road to let my NA 1000+hp let loose and tear through an infinite amount of gears, eccelerating for eternity. and breaking the sound barried (now that i'm fantasising). but i know its not realistic, i know its not safe, i know it would be downright stupid to even try to build something like that and use the street to test its limits. maybe it just comes down to people thinking with their dicks instead of their heads. they want to show off their manly hood with a dyno queen, they want to feel invincible on the road, etc, etc.

(i'll probably keep editting this as i think of more stuff to say)