Too much timing chain slack?
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
I will ask again:
A/G would you post links to references as to the "positive stop method" being the incorrect way to find TDC.
This is a tutorial of how to degree a cam.
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance..../camshaft.html
This is what comes in a Comp Cams set.
Universal Cam Degree Kit - CLEARANCE
PART #4796
Universal Cam Degree Kit - CLEARANCE
$139.95
Quantity:
Universal Cam Degree Kit Kit Includes the following:#4790 9" Degree Wheel, #4902 Cam Checking Fixture, #4909 0-1" Travel Dial Indicator, #190 VHS Cam Degree Video, #4794 Wire Degree Wheel Pointer, #4795 TDC Piston Stop, #4758 2 Lightweight Checking Springs, #145 Cam Degreeing Instruction Booklet.
A/G would you post links to references as to the "positive stop method" being the incorrect way to find TDC.
This is a tutorial of how to degree a cam.
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance..../camshaft.html
This is what comes in a Comp Cams set.
Universal Cam Degree Kit - CLEARANCE
PART #4796
Universal Cam Degree Kit - CLEARANCE
$139.95
Quantity:
Universal Cam Degree Kit Kit Includes the following:#4790 9" Degree Wheel, #4902 Cam Checking Fixture, #4909 0-1" Travel Dial Indicator, #190 VHS Cam Degree Video, #4794 Wire Degree Wheel Pointer, #4795 TDC Piston Stop, #4758 2 Lightweight Checking Springs, #145 Cam Degreeing Instruction Booklet.
Last edited by 1racerdude; Mar 18, 2006 at 03:36 PM.
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
Here is what Isky says:
POSITIVE STOP METHOD OF FINDING T.D.C.
The most practical way of locating T.D.C. is known as the positive stop method. No dial indicator is required for this procedure. First, let's see how it's done, utilizing the degree wheel.
1. Fasten the degree wheel to the crank. Then, take a stiff 1/4-inch rod or similar material and sharpen one end to form a pointer. Attach this pointer so that it rests very close to the damper to eliminate parallax viewing error.
2. Obtain a stout strip of steel about seven inches long and drill three 1/2-inch holes in it (see Figs. 7 & 8 for position of holes). This strip is placed across the center of the No. 1 cylinder bore and bolted on each end to secure it to the block. Caution: Be sure that the strip of steel is rigid enough so that it will not be deflected when the piston contacts the center bolt stop. Incidentally, the positive stop should be adjusted so as to stop the piston's upward travel at approximately .200 to .800 below T.D.C.
3. Rotate the crankshaft in normal running direction (clockwise) until the piston crown lightly strikes the positive stop.
4. Now, radially adjust and lock the degree wheel to the crankshaft at 40 degrees before T.D.C. at the pointer.
5. Now rotate the crankshaft backwards to the positive stop. If the degree wheel reads' 40 degrees from T.D.C. you have hit Top Dead Center exactly, and the zero mark between the two 40-degree readings is absolute T.D.C..
6. However if your readings were unbalanced, you will have to split the difference (your errors in degrees) by moving the degree wheel radially on the crankshaft. Then, try again until you get exactly the same degree readings against the positive stop on either side of T.D.C. NOTE: The lower the positive stop is located below T.D.C., the greater the degree readings will be. But, the results will always be accurate. T.D.C. always lies equidistant between the two positive stop readings.
POSITIVE STOP METHOD OF FINDING T.D.C.
The most practical way of locating T.D.C. is known as the positive stop method. No dial indicator is required for this procedure. First, let's see how it's done, utilizing the degree wheel.
1. Fasten the degree wheel to the crank. Then, take a stiff 1/4-inch rod or similar material and sharpen one end to form a pointer. Attach this pointer so that it rests very close to the damper to eliminate parallax viewing error.
2. Obtain a stout strip of steel about seven inches long and drill three 1/2-inch holes in it (see Figs. 7 & 8 for position of holes). This strip is placed across the center of the No. 1 cylinder bore and bolted on each end to secure it to the block. Caution: Be sure that the strip of steel is rigid enough so that it will not be deflected when the piston contacts the center bolt stop. Incidentally, the positive stop should be adjusted so as to stop the piston's upward travel at approximately .200 to .800 below T.D.C.
3. Rotate the crankshaft in normal running direction (clockwise) until the piston crown lightly strikes the positive stop.
4. Now, radially adjust and lock the degree wheel to the crankshaft at 40 degrees before T.D.C. at the pointer.
5. Now rotate the crankshaft backwards to the positive stop. If the degree wheel reads' 40 degrees from T.D.C. you have hit Top Dead Center exactly, and the zero mark between the two 40-degree readings is absolute T.D.C..
6. However if your readings were unbalanced, you will have to split the difference (your errors in degrees) by moving the degree wheel radially on the crankshaft. Then, try again until you get exactly the same degree readings against the positive stop on either side of T.D.C. NOTE: The lower the positive stop is located below T.D.C., the greater the degree readings will be. But, the results will always be accurate. T.D.C. always lies equidistant between the two positive stop readings.
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
Originally Posted by SiCk PuPpY
I've decided to go with the Meziere electric water pump and a roller timing set (possibly the Cloyes True Roller). I'm now performing forum research to find out what problems that will pose and what I can/if I can keep the reluctor wheel.
Ya can't keep the wheel with a double row.
Ya need the hub from a '93-'95 'cause it is longer to make up for the spacing difference when leaving the wheel out or a spacer.
Ya can have the wheel machined to the OD of your existing hub and use it as a spacer also.
If ya get an aftermarket balancer for an LT1 it should come with a spacer.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
I'll throw in another vote for dial indicator to find TDC. I don't know any proshops
that will use a piston stop, or one of those cheap degree kits with a 9" degree wheel
.
A dial and a large diameter degree wheel is what should be used.
I can measure in half a degree or better using a dial indicator, and the needle moves
very clearly.
Just for comparison, my base and dial is worth more than that entire kit.
that will use a piston stop, or one of those cheap degree kits with a 9" degree wheel
.A dial and a large diameter degree wheel is what should be used.
I can measure in half a degree or better using a dial indicator, and the needle moves
very clearly.
Just for comparison, my base and dial is worth more than that entire kit.
Last edited by PUR_SSYN; Mar 18, 2006 at 06:44 PM.
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
Another one from Crane:
What Tools Will I Need to Degree the Cam?
The basic tools required are:
1. A degree wheel, such as Crane Cams part number 99162-1. (You can also use a professional fully degreed damper or hub, or install degree tape to your stock damper. Be sure to get the tape that matches the diameter of the damper. Use whatever will give you accurate markings for 360°.)
2. A stable pointer that can be conveniently mounted to the engine.
3. A dial indicator with at least a half inch of travel in .001" increments. A rigid stand that mounts to the engine or with a magnetic base to hold the dial indicator will also be required.
4. A positive stop device to locate T.D.C. such as Crane Cams part no. 99410-1 or 99412-1 will be necessary. (You can make your own by using an old spark plug. Remove the porcelain insides, then drill and tap the interior of the spark plug housing and thread a long bolt through it.)
All of the above tools are in the Crane Cams Tune-A-Cam Kit, part number 99030-1.
Tune-A-Cam Kit
Critical cam and valve train checking chores can be made easier, more accurate and faster when you have the correct tools handy. Crane Cams' Tune-A-Cam Kit, Part No. 99030-1, contains all the items required to degree-in your camshaft, check valve-to-piston clearance, etc. These items are all enclosed in their own foam protected, hard plastic carrying case.
How Do You Find Top Dead Center (T.D.C.)?
Determining exactly where Top Dead Center is can be tricky. The problem in finding the true T.D.C. of the piston's travel is that the piston dwells at T.D.C. for several degrees of crankshaft rotation. You must use a device to stop the piston in the same position on either side of T.D.C. and take readings from the degree wheel.
You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true T.D.C. point. Begin the procedure by first mounting the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft securely, and rotating the engine to approximately T.D.C. Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel. Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt. Now hand turn the engine (do not use the starter motor or you will put a hole through the piston), rotating until the piston comes up and stops against the bolt. Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer.
Hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the bolt again. Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads. Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two. Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount. Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of T.D.C. are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true T.D.C. point. Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole, as this procedure is complete.
A Simple Explanation of Cam Degreeing
In simple terms, the degreeing process can be thought of as using a dial indicator and degree wheel as tools to map out one revolution around the cam lobe. You will start on the base circle of the lobe where there is no lift. See figure below.
Then by rotating the engine you will move up the opening side, go over the top of the lobe, then move down the closing side, finishing back on the base circle.
The dial indicator will move from zero, up to maximum lobe lift, then back to zero during this revolution. You will watch the dial indicator, and stop at two key points to take readings from the degree wheel. Both points will be when the dial indicator shows .050" of lifter rise. This .050" reading will occur on the opening side and again on the closing side of the lobe. These readings will then be compared to the specification card to see how close you are. If necessary, corrections can be made to put the camshaft in the exact position.
Important Tips to Remember When Degreeing a Camshaft
It's really hard to not pay attention to the people who make cams and the procedure to install their product.They also sell a kit to do the job with. If the kit wouldn't get it done,do ya think they would sell it? Especially if ya are doing it for the first few times. A bigger wheel is more accurate but the small one WILL get it done.
What Tools Will I Need to Degree the Cam?
The basic tools required are:
1. A degree wheel, such as Crane Cams part number 99162-1. (You can also use a professional fully degreed damper or hub, or install degree tape to your stock damper. Be sure to get the tape that matches the diameter of the damper. Use whatever will give you accurate markings for 360°.)
2. A stable pointer that can be conveniently mounted to the engine.
3. A dial indicator with at least a half inch of travel in .001" increments. A rigid stand that mounts to the engine or with a magnetic base to hold the dial indicator will also be required.
4. A positive stop device to locate T.D.C. such as Crane Cams part no. 99410-1 or 99412-1 will be necessary. (You can make your own by using an old spark plug. Remove the porcelain insides, then drill and tap the interior of the spark plug housing and thread a long bolt through it.)
All of the above tools are in the Crane Cams Tune-A-Cam Kit, part number 99030-1.
Tune-A-Cam Kit
Critical cam and valve train checking chores can be made easier, more accurate and faster when you have the correct tools handy. Crane Cams' Tune-A-Cam Kit, Part No. 99030-1, contains all the items required to degree-in your camshaft, check valve-to-piston clearance, etc. These items are all enclosed in their own foam protected, hard plastic carrying case.
How Do You Find Top Dead Center (T.D.C.)?
Determining exactly where Top Dead Center is can be tricky. The problem in finding the true T.D.C. of the piston's travel is that the piston dwells at T.D.C. for several degrees of crankshaft rotation. You must use a device to stop the piston in the same position on either side of T.D.C. and take readings from the degree wheel.
You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true T.D.C. point. Begin the procedure by first mounting the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft securely, and rotating the engine to approximately T.D.C. Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel. Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt. Now hand turn the engine (do not use the starter motor or you will put a hole through the piston), rotating until the piston comes up and stops against the bolt. Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer.
Hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the bolt again. Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads. Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two. Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount. Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of T.D.C. are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true T.D.C. point. Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole, as this procedure is complete.
A Simple Explanation of Cam Degreeing
In simple terms, the degreeing process can be thought of as using a dial indicator and degree wheel as tools to map out one revolution around the cam lobe. You will start on the base circle of the lobe where there is no lift. See figure below.
Then by rotating the engine you will move up the opening side, go over the top of the lobe, then move down the closing side, finishing back on the base circle.
The dial indicator will move from zero, up to maximum lobe lift, then back to zero during this revolution. You will watch the dial indicator, and stop at two key points to take readings from the degree wheel. Both points will be when the dial indicator shows .050" of lifter rise. This .050" reading will occur on the opening side and again on the closing side of the lobe. These readings will then be compared to the specification card to see how close you are. If necessary, corrections can be made to put the camshaft in the exact position.
Important Tips to Remember When Degreeing a Camshaft
It's really hard to not pay attention to the people who make cams and the procedure to install their product.They also sell a kit to do the job with. If the kit wouldn't get it done,do ya think they would sell it? Especially if ya are doing it for the first few times. A bigger wheel is more accurate but the small one WILL get it done.
Last edited by 1racerdude; Mar 18, 2006 at 06:17 PM.
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
Here is one with the heads ON:
Hard to use an indicator with the heads on to find TDC.
DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT
Degreeing In Your Camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in it's correct position. Always degree in your Web Cam Racing Cam for best performance.
The basic tools required are a degree wheel, a stable pointer that can be mounted to the engine, a dial indicator with at least a half inch of travel in .001" increments, a stand that mounts it to the engine, and a positive stop device to locate T.D.C.
DISCONNECT THE BATTERY!
Do not use the starter to perform any of these steps. To find Top Dead Center use a piston stop to stop the piston in the same position on either side of T.D.C. and take readings from the degree wheel. You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true T.D.C. point. First mount the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft, and rotate the engine to approximate T.D.C. Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel. Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt. Now hand turn the engine, rotating it until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop bolt. Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer. Hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the piston stop bolt again. Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads. Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two. Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount. Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of T.D.C. are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true T.D.C. point. Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole.
After you're done finding TDC proceed with the following:
In case anybody wants to read the rest of it:
http://www.webcamshafts.com/degreeing.html
Hard to use an indicator with the heads on to find TDC.
DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT
Degreeing In Your Camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in it's correct position. Always degree in your Web Cam Racing Cam for best performance.
The basic tools required are a degree wheel, a stable pointer that can be mounted to the engine, a dial indicator with at least a half inch of travel in .001" increments, a stand that mounts it to the engine, and a positive stop device to locate T.D.C.
DISCONNECT THE BATTERY!
Do not use the starter to perform any of these steps. To find Top Dead Center use a piston stop to stop the piston in the same position on either side of T.D.C. and take readings from the degree wheel. You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true T.D.C. point. First mount the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft, and rotate the engine to approximate T.D.C. Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel. Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt. Now hand turn the engine, rotating it until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop bolt. Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer. Hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the piston stop bolt again. Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads. Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two. Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount. Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of T.D.C. are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true T.D.C. point. Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole.
After you're done finding TDC proceed with the following:
In case anybody wants to read the rest of it:
http://www.webcamshafts.com/degreeing.html
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 123
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
Originally Posted by 1racerdude
I will ask again:
A/G would you post links to references as to the "positive stop method" being the incorrect way to find TDC.
A/G would you post links to references as to the "positive stop method" being the incorrect way to find TDC.
You may consider brushing up on your 3rd grade reading skills. Where did I state the PSM was the INCORRECT way?
As for the link you provided....
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance..../camshaft.html
... you may also consider reading some of that link YOU provided.
Quote: "There are several ways to degree a cam. This is my version."
The guy is obvious the average guy willing to share his experiences, and it was nice enuf of him to do so.
Originally Posted by 1racerdude
This is what comes in a Comp Cams set.
Here is what Isky says:
Another one from Crane:
Here is what Isky says:
Another one from Crane:
Don't know if the following is quoting you or is part of the Crane tuturial.... It may be you as it displays poor writing skills. Regardless, I agree with it as it re-enforces what I have typed (*) immediately above.
It's really hard to not pay attention to the people who make cams and the procedure to install their product. Especially if ya are doing it for the first few times..
EDIT: Maybe the line of reasoning you have posted IS for real. Maybe you are not toying with me, as you obviously spent some time gathering the reference material in your posts. Apparently, you really believe what you've posted.
Last edited by A/G; Mar 18, 2006 at 07:06 PM.
Banned
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,661
From: LA (lower Alabama)
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
Go here:
http://www.hotrodders.com/kb/browselinks.php?c=68
Yea,they are amateurs.
I suppose Crane and Isky are amateurs also.
Ain't gonna argue with you any more.The posted tutorials should be enough to see how it is recommended to be done and by people who have a bunch more knowledge than most people. Especially for the majority on the board,and the first time users this should be good enough.
Still asking for those info posts.
http://www.hotrodders.com/kb/browselinks.php?c=68
Yea,they are amateurs.
I suppose Crane and Isky are amateurs also.
Ain't gonna argue with you any more.The posted tutorials should be enough to see how it is recommended to be done and by people who have a bunch more knowledge than most people. Especially for the majority on the board,and the first time users this should be good enough.
Still asking for those info posts.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,094
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
A/G:
OK... you saw I was trying to get this thread under control, and then you go and start it up again with more flames. What part of the "no name calling".... "act mature" do you not understand?
Knock it off, or I'm simply going to start deleting the offending posts.
TIA for your full cooperation.
OK... you saw I was trying to get this thread under control, and then you go and start it up again with more flames. What part of the "no name calling".... "act mature" do you not understand?
Knock it off, or I'm simply going to start deleting the offending posts.
TIA for your full cooperation.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,094
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Re: Too much timing chain slack?
SiCk PuPpY:
My apologies to you. It is unfortunate that your simple request was met with inflated egos by a couple of people. This is three threads in a row where this has happened.
I'm closing this thread. If you would like to try again, in the hope that mature, friendly people will help you out, feel free to try. Unfortunately, that is getting harder to do on this forum.
My apologies to you. It is unfortunate that your simple request was met with inflated egos by a couple of people. This is three threads in a row where this has happened.
I'm closing this thread. If you would like to try again, in the hope that mature, friendly people will help you out, feel free to try. Unfortunately, that is getting harder to do on this forum.
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