Nitrous wet kit in 1 bottle?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7
Nitrous wet kit in 1 bottle?
Hello, I've been browsing this site for months and finally came up with a question I haven't read an answer for yet. This seemed the most appropriate place to post, so hopefully this'll be OK.
Is it possible to combine nitrous and fuel in a nitrous bottle? I've been looking into building a nitrous/propane system for my car (I've just got a dry shot now). I'm enticed by the positive possibilities of using propane:
Not a liquid when sprayed, so it can't puddle
Easily available & cheap
High octane
Goes a long way (1 lb of propane per 10 lb of nitrous, according to my balanced equation)
I just took a stab at this and came up with this formula - could be completely wrong, I'm no chemist. I just helped my son with this in school
Nitrous n2o atomic weight = 44 (n=14, o=16)
propane c3h8 atomic weight = 44 (c=12 h=1)
(wierd, huh)
(1) c3h8 + (10) n2o -> (4) h2o + (3) co2 + (10) n2
since the atomic weights are the same, the weight ratio should also be the same.
Anyway, that's beside the point. If, knowing that the ideal ratio of nitrous to propane would be 10:1 by weight, you were to take an empty cylinder & put 1 lb of propane in it, then follow that with 10 lb of nitrous, what would happen? Would the nitrous and propane form a uniform solution, or would one float above the other? Would it blow up? If they mix into a solution, then all you would need would be the equivalent of a dry kit - a line, an sov, and a nozzle - and your a/f ratio would always be spot-on. Also, a failed solenoid would not cause a lean condition (fuel sov won't open) or a rich condition (n2o sov won't open), and you could use redundant sov's like the 5177 kit to protect against a sov failed open. Both nitrous and propane would be a liquid at bottle pressure. Propane is a liquid at what, 150psi, in the bottle on a grille? And if the blowoff valve goes off for some reason, the mix won't ignite unless it reached propane's autoignite point 842 degF - or would it? Not to mention that the mix would be very cold. The only bummer I can see is having to completely empty the bottle before a refill, or the bottle pressure would be higher than the propane source. That in itself could be disaster, too, if the pressure backed into the propane tank & ruptured it. And I've emptied a propane cylinder before & it froze - I suppose that could be an issue too?
The main concern is, of course, safety, first mine and then that of my car. Is there anything in this setup that would cause an explosion? Having a fuel source and an oxidant in the same space under high pressure - would it ignite in the absense of a high-temperature ignition source? I've always thought a dry kit was the safest way to go for my MAF car, assuming the solenoids don't fail open, and assuming I don't exceed the duty cycle capacity of my injectors, but I don't like relying on the MAF. With the 1-bottle wet kit, I wouldn't have to.
As far as that goes, I see no reason why another fuel source couldn't be used in the bottle instead of propane. Alcohol could be poured into the bottle before filling with nitrous. N2o is soluble in alcohol from what I've read, although I'm not sure if that's the same thing I think it is. What exactly would happen to a liquid alcohol/n2o mix when the pressure fell from 1000psi to atmospheric? I know the temperature would drop, but the nitrous would turn into a gas and the alcohol would remain a liquid? Another issue is would a setup like this ever pass tech? The nitrous bottle is good for at least 2000psi, so that shouldn't be an issue, but I'm not sure about how a pressurized fuel cylinder would be received.
This is all just theoretical at this point, of course. I'll shut up & read now. And please don't just tell me I'm crazy, I'll blow something up, it's a bad idea, stick to the tried & true methods, you've got no business around a car, you must be a stupid teenager with a death wish. I'd like to hear something a little more insightful, if possible.
Thank you.
-Mark
Is it possible to combine nitrous and fuel in a nitrous bottle? I've been looking into building a nitrous/propane system for my car (I've just got a dry shot now). I'm enticed by the positive possibilities of using propane:
Not a liquid when sprayed, so it can't puddle
Easily available & cheap
High octane
Goes a long way (1 lb of propane per 10 lb of nitrous, according to my balanced equation)
I just took a stab at this and came up with this formula - could be completely wrong, I'm no chemist. I just helped my son with this in school
Nitrous n2o atomic weight = 44 (n=14, o=16)
propane c3h8 atomic weight = 44 (c=12 h=1)
(wierd, huh)
(1) c3h8 + (10) n2o -> (4) h2o + (3) co2 + (10) n2
since the atomic weights are the same, the weight ratio should also be the same.
Anyway, that's beside the point. If, knowing that the ideal ratio of nitrous to propane would be 10:1 by weight, you were to take an empty cylinder & put 1 lb of propane in it, then follow that with 10 lb of nitrous, what would happen? Would the nitrous and propane form a uniform solution, or would one float above the other? Would it blow up? If they mix into a solution, then all you would need would be the equivalent of a dry kit - a line, an sov, and a nozzle - and your a/f ratio would always be spot-on. Also, a failed solenoid would not cause a lean condition (fuel sov won't open) or a rich condition (n2o sov won't open), and you could use redundant sov's like the 5177 kit to protect against a sov failed open. Both nitrous and propane would be a liquid at bottle pressure. Propane is a liquid at what, 150psi, in the bottle on a grille? And if the blowoff valve goes off for some reason, the mix won't ignite unless it reached propane's autoignite point 842 degF - or would it? Not to mention that the mix would be very cold. The only bummer I can see is having to completely empty the bottle before a refill, or the bottle pressure would be higher than the propane source. That in itself could be disaster, too, if the pressure backed into the propane tank & ruptured it. And I've emptied a propane cylinder before & it froze - I suppose that could be an issue too?
The main concern is, of course, safety, first mine and then that of my car. Is there anything in this setup that would cause an explosion? Having a fuel source and an oxidant in the same space under high pressure - would it ignite in the absense of a high-temperature ignition source? I've always thought a dry kit was the safest way to go for my MAF car, assuming the solenoids don't fail open, and assuming I don't exceed the duty cycle capacity of my injectors, but I don't like relying on the MAF. With the 1-bottle wet kit, I wouldn't have to.
As far as that goes, I see no reason why another fuel source couldn't be used in the bottle instead of propane. Alcohol could be poured into the bottle before filling with nitrous. N2o is soluble in alcohol from what I've read, although I'm not sure if that's the same thing I think it is. What exactly would happen to a liquid alcohol/n2o mix when the pressure fell from 1000psi to atmospheric? I know the temperature would drop, but the nitrous would turn into a gas and the alcohol would remain a liquid? Another issue is would a setup like this ever pass tech? The nitrous bottle is good for at least 2000psi, so that shouldn't be an issue, but I'm not sure about how a pressurized fuel cylinder would be received.
This is all just theoretical at this point, of course. I'll shut up & read now. And please don't just tell me I'm crazy, I'll blow something up, it's a bad idea, stick to the tried & true methods, you've got no business around a car, you must be a stupid teenager with a death wish. I'd like to hear something a little more insightful, if possible.
Thank you.
-Mark
Banned
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,211
I don't suppose that using propane instead of gasoline is a violation of the laws of physics or anything like that...
I mean, I guess that you could do it, although you might spend quite a bit of money on new engines before you got it right.
But, I think that trying to combine Nitrous, actually Nytrous (with sulfer dioxide) in one bottle might not be the way to go.
I suspect that you would get better mix control by using two bottles and dedicated solenoids.
I mean, I guess that you could do it, although you might spend quite a bit of money on new engines before you got it right.
But, I think that trying to combine Nitrous, actually Nytrous (with sulfer dioxide) in one bottle might not be the way to go.
I suspect that you would get better mix control by using two bottles and dedicated solenoids.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 356
From: Oakland City, IN
Well, All I have to say to this one is I would seriously like to be there when you try it. I don't think I've ever seen an engine completely explode before and it would be cool to watch 
From a distance that is...
N2O and C3H8 are the basis for a fairly potent liquid rocket fuel. You put those two together, and you don't need much more than a modest ignition and you could run your car in space..
Ok, you want proof...
In all honesty though, I hope noone sees this thread and actually goes through with trying it. Real easy way to get killed. I know you said don't say this, but I will anyway.
Stick with N2O and Gasoline. If you want more bang, then add more of both. Simple and (above all) SAFE!
My 2 cents..
Dave C.
From a distance that is...N2O and C3H8 are the basis for a fairly potent liquid rocket fuel. You put those two together, and you don't need much more than a modest ignition and you could run your car in space..
Ok, you want proof...
In all honesty though, I hope noone sees this thread and actually goes through with trying it. Real easy way to get killed. I know you said don't say this, but I will anyway.
Stick with N2O and Gasoline. If you want more bang, then add more of both. Simple and (above all) SAFE!
My 2 cents..
Dave C.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,445
From: Seattle, WA
won't work... physics just doesn't support it.
In 2 tanks? yes... in the same tank? probably not.
Propane (LPG) will boil at room temperture between 15 and 150psi depending on composition (some LPG contains almost no n-propane, while others have abotu 1/3 n-propane although physical properties are fairly even regardless). This means that at pressures in excess of 150psi you'll have all liquid Propane... and no propane vapor.
The vapour pressure of liquid nitrous however is closer to 900psi at room temperture as as a result the bottle containing a propane and nitrous mixture would only evaporate nitrous above the mixture.
Here's where things get ugly... automotive propane applications do not use gaseous propane as we do in bar-b-que grill. Normally LPG has two phases (liquid & gas) inside the tank and we siphon the gass off the top of the tank to ignite it for cooking. The evaporation is occuring in the tank and as such, the tank gets cold as the liquid phase cools. The nozzle is designed to regulate flow of propane gas (~0.12 lb/ft^3 @ 70 deg. F) not propane liquid (~31 lb/ft^3)... this is why "normal" propane tanks MUST be kept upright (to avoid a MASSIVE propane release accidentally), and why we don't use them for cars.
Automotive propane, and nitrous for that matter, use a "siphon pick-up" that uses the high pressure gas phase in the bottle to push liquid phase out of the tank, through lines, and finally into the intake track where evaporation can occur. This is why Nitrous bottles and automotive propane bottles do NOT get cold during use... the bulk of the evaporation occurs at the jet, not in the tank.
Seeing that the liquid phase would be a mix of nitrous and propane... and that they "may" form a homologous mixture, the 10:1 ratio you're looking for will not be very consistant... as fluid is siphoned out of the tank more nitrous evaporates into gas phase the mixture ratio changes slightly (not much mind you, the total volume of a nitrous tank can't be more than a cubic foot or two, and at worst it'll run a bit rich).
Still considering it? just hoping the bottle mix will be in the right ratio with a slightly rich condition near empty? What happens when you run out liquid?
yes, if you EVER uncover the sipon tube.... kaboon... instant lean-burn-pistons... remember the nitrous is the only thing in the 900psi gas phase... that's the physics of it. (VERY VERY VERY bad idea IMO).
Even if you could come up with a super cool shut-off switch (like say a trick ultra-sound sensor that measures the density of the feed line to shut off if liquid isn't present in the lines) you'd have to realize that COMPRESSING a fuel / oxidizer mix to HUNDREDS of psi is just a horrible idea. Consider this: diesel engines have a CR of ~22:1, and atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi... that means it takes a modest warming of a 323 psi gas/air mixture to initate combustion. Granted, there's little to no atomization of propane once the tank pressure rises about 150psi.... but are you willing to take that chance?
Also of note is that the propane-doping of the nitrous to a 10:1 mixute means that the nitrous bottle needs to be heated even more than usual to get to 900psi... becasue the 10/11th's fraction in the liquid phase results in 9.9% less vapor pressure. A bottle heater that would normally get you from 725pis (room temp) to 900psi (heated), would only get you to 818psi with even hotter bottle temps required to get the pressure to where you want it for nitrous.
This is just way too complicated to run safely much less "consistantly" which racers are looking for.
In 2 tanks? yes... in the same tank? probably not.
Propane (LPG) will boil at room temperture between 15 and 150psi depending on composition (some LPG contains almost no n-propane, while others have abotu 1/3 n-propane although physical properties are fairly even regardless). This means that at pressures in excess of 150psi you'll have all liquid Propane... and no propane vapor.
The vapour pressure of liquid nitrous however is closer to 900psi at room temperture as as a result the bottle containing a propane and nitrous mixture would only evaporate nitrous above the mixture.
Here's where things get ugly... automotive propane applications do not use gaseous propane as we do in bar-b-que grill. Normally LPG has two phases (liquid & gas) inside the tank and we siphon the gass off the top of the tank to ignite it for cooking. The evaporation is occuring in the tank and as such, the tank gets cold as the liquid phase cools. The nozzle is designed to regulate flow of propane gas (~0.12 lb/ft^3 @ 70 deg. F) not propane liquid (~31 lb/ft^3)... this is why "normal" propane tanks MUST be kept upright (to avoid a MASSIVE propane release accidentally), and why we don't use them for cars.
Automotive propane, and nitrous for that matter, use a "siphon pick-up" that uses the high pressure gas phase in the bottle to push liquid phase out of the tank, through lines, and finally into the intake track where evaporation can occur. This is why Nitrous bottles and automotive propane bottles do NOT get cold during use... the bulk of the evaporation occurs at the jet, not in the tank.
Seeing that the liquid phase would be a mix of nitrous and propane... and that they "may" form a homologous mixture, the 10:1 ratio you're looking for will not be very consistant... as fluid is siphoned out of the tank more nitrous evaporates into gas phase the mixture ratio changes slightly (not much mind you, the total volume of a nitrous tank can't be more than a cubic foot or two, and at worst it'll run a bit rich).
Still considering it? just hoping the bottle mix will be in the right ratio with a slightly rich condition near empty? What happens when you run out liquid?
yes, if you EVER uncover the sipon tube.... kaboon... instant lean-burn-pistons... remember the nitrous is the only thing in the 900psi gas phase... that's the physics of it. (VERY VERY VERY bad idea IMO
).Even if you could come up with a super cool shut-off switch (like say a trick ultra-sound sensor that measures the density of the feed line to shut off if liquid isn't present in the lines
) you'd have to realize that COMPRESSING a fuel / oxidizer mix to HUNDREDS of psi is just a horrible idea. Consider this: diesel engines have a CR of ~22:1, and atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi... that means it takes a modest warming of a 323 psi gas/air mixture to initate combustion. Granted, there's little to no atomization of propane once the tank pressure rises about 150psi.... but are you willing to take that chance? Also of note is that the propane-doping of the nitrous to a 10:1 mixute means that the nitrous bottle needs to be heated even more than usual to get to 900psi... becasue the 10/11th's fraction in the liquid phase results in 9.9% less vapor pressure. A bottle heater that would normally get you from 725pis (room temp) to 900psi (heated), would only get you to 818psi with even hotter bottle temps required to get the pressure to where you want it for nitrous.
This is just way too complicated to run safely much less "consistantly" which racers are looking for.
Last edited by Steve in Seattle; Jul 12, 2004 at 07:34 PM.
Administrator
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 71,098
From: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
BTR Performance makes the propane/nitrous kit for the Corvette and Viper. Very pricey at $1,300 to $1,900 and the C5/LS1 kit is limited to about 150HP as I recall.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7
I knew this was a good place to post. You guys sure know alot more about this stuff than any locals I know...
OK I'm convinced. I'll leave the bomb-making to the terrorists. If I go the nitrous/propane route, I'll use separate solenoids & tanks like the corvette kit does. One other question. Where would you get a propane cylinder with a syphon tube? Or can one be fit to a standard DOT propane bottle?
OK I'm convinced. I'll leave the bomb-making to the terrorists. If I go the nitrous/propane route, I'll use separate solenoids & tanks like the corvette kit does. One other question. Where would you get a propane cylinder with a syphon tube? Or can one be fit to a standard DOT propane bottle?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7
I guess I've got an fbi profile for sure now. Assuming I never had one before
Not to beat this to death, but would the situation be any different with alcohol instead of propane? ie, what would happen if I added nitrous to a container of denatured alcohol and compressed it to 1050 psi, then sprayed it... on the drag strip, far far away from any concentrated population centers, national conventions or tall buildings...
...
hello fbi I'm a republican
Not to beat this to death, but would the situation be any different with alcohol instead of propane? ie, what would happen if I added nitrous to a container of denatured alcohol and compressed it to 1050 psi, then sprayed it... on the drag strip, far far away from any concentrated population centers, national conventions or tall buildings...
...
hello fbi I'm a republican
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,445
From: Seattle, WA
No not really. There arn't many alcohols that would have less vapour pressure than propane at 900 psi. Maybe methanol, but that's just a guess. I'd imagine you'd STILL go lean with an uncovered tube... and in the case of menanol you'll be stuck with a higher dilution factor of the nitrous (closer to 3:1 if I had to guess without crunching the numbers).
Getting a Nitrous filling station to fill a bottle that isn't JUST used for nitrous is close to impossible... although I suppose you could order a large tank and do your own filling.
This is insane dude... the concept of compressed fuel and oxidizer at 900psi just gives me the *****'s... chaulk it up as a bar-napkin idea and move on. very BAD idea...
Getting a Nitrous filling station to fill a bottle that isn't JUST used for nitrous is close to impossible... although I suppose you could order a large tank and do your own filling.
This is insane dude... the concept of compressed fuel and oxidizer at 900psi just gives me the *****'s... chaulk it up as a bar-napkin idea and move on. very BAD idea...
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7
I think the concept of having a fuel source with oxygen atoms as part of the chemical structure is a good idea, that's what the dragsters use. But nitro-methane just isn't practicle for street use, and what I'd be doing with the propane & nitrous is basically trying to make my own nitro. Would make a good plot for a movie, perhaps.
Thanks everybody for the help.
<wrinkles up napkin, throws in trash, grabs glass>
cheers
-Mark
Thanks everybody for the help.
<wrinkles up napkin, throws in trash, grabs glass>
cheers
-Mark
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ezcheeze15
Car Audio and Electronics
8
Aug 26, 2002 01:28 PM