I agree... leave the IAC passage open. If you have split BLM's, adjust the throttle blades until they even out. My BLM's had ~15 points variation first time I started tuning on the motor. Easy enough to level out though.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes Denny.

-Mindgame

 

What is your reasoning, Brett?

 

These posts appear contradictory to each other.

 

I'm gonna disagree, Brett. Priority #1 should be a dedicated ring /wall breakin. And no, I'm not talking 500 miles either. AFAIC, that is 'old school' foolishness. The longer you dicker around seating rings, the higher the risk of not achieving an effective breakin. To attempt to tune anything, be it a tune for FI, or looking for the cause for hitting a brick wall, should be done AFTER you are confident the breakin is complete. I believe it is a mistake to 'throw' too many variables in at one time. The software should be capable of running the engine without risk of overheating, or washing down the walls with fuel, BEFORE you ever start a fresh shortblock. The idea is to have software installed, to allow concentrating on an effective breakin procedure.

Yeah, come back to it after you've gotten a good seal. Take it to the track and make some runs, either that or find some long (deserted) on-ramps and let her rip.

I agree in principle, with above paragraph. Concentrate on priority 1 first.

 

Arnie,

From what i have found you are going to be farther away from total max power with a FI application, and I want the rings to seat with the full force they will see later on so that's why I do it this way. Guys take a while to dial in the motor and sometimes it takes them a bit to get it on to the dyno to see how much they can ring out of the thing. I'd rather have it ready to rock from the first firing but that doesn't always happen that way, if it's NA warm it up and start putting some pressure on the rings imediately if the cam is safe to go.

Bret

 

Brett, I can undestand your rationale on that. However, I personally, do not view that as an acceptable tradeoff. I'd much rather go with an immediate and dedicated breakin, as if it were an NA setup. The idea is to put A load on the engine to get the rings seated effectively. I fail to see the necessity of the ultimate load to do an effective job of it. For instance, if I were doin' the ring seating on a not so private roadway, I'd much rather put a load on the engine using 4th gear. That does not imply putting a load on it using third gear, will not get the job done, even though the load is not as severe. Acceptable analogy?
I view that as the reasoning I'd use even if it were a FI setup, as noted above. The idea would be to concentrate on priority #1, to such a degree, that I would preferably, bolt on the turbo//blower after the fact. I view the breakin-in attempt, as a one shot deal. AFAIC, anything later on, wouldn't be as effective. Some may view this as overkill.

 

Well gang…. I’m a little numb at the moment.

We put the monoblade on and lost about 10-15 rwhp in peak power. Not sure what too really think, but we’ll put the 58mm TB back on and try it again to see if that is an issue at all.

Strange deal as the curve is almost identical except for around 6000 rpm which peaked higher before. Still makes about 430 rwhp @ 7200 rpm, just hits a certain point and goes almost flat forever. Air fuel with monoblade and larger injectors looks perfect now even @ 7200 rpm. Rings seem to be seated as it’s very smooth on top and the air/fuel now changes with tuning. Just doesn’t respond normally to tuning.

Never seen a dyno sheet quite like this. The car will be much faster than the peak numbers show, as there is no peak. It just hits a certain point and goes on.

The only fly in the ointment is last week we made 458 rwhp with new 36lb Venom injectors and one started leaking after the dyno session so I got a new set. One of those was bad out of the box so I went home and got the set that was to be returned. We (Scott) replaced the bad injector and it too was bad right out of the box. Plus, the tips kept falling off during injector removal and the intake had to be replaced twice to fetch the plastic tips.

Bottom line…… the second set of injectors is going back also and I’ll pick up a set of 42 lb SVO’s instead. FYI…. Being there was a total of three bad injectors (that we know of) and they looked rebuilt instead of new, I’d stay away from Venom injectors.

Maybe, just maybe……. we are looking at quality issue in injectors vs a monoblade issue plus it developed a header leak and that may be causing issues also.

Whatever……… we’ll get to the bottom of things but jeeez, as the ice skater whom got clubbed in the knee said: “Why me, Whyyyyy MEEE!”

 

Scott and I just had a brain storming session and he's faxing the dyno sheet into a buddy @ Rheer Morrison to get their input.

Injectors, header leak or throttle body set aside, we may not have the right camshaft. Something just isn't clicking right.

We'll see what Rheer Morrison says but in the interium, I'm ordering out a third set of injectors only this time flow matched 42lb SVO's, having the headers rewelded ( leaks from porting the headers) and kinda sit on things for a bit to regroup.

So who said this was easy??

 

I feel guilty about posting three times in a row....

According to Rhere Morrison, it's the intake.

Even though it’s been extensively ported, the intake volume and runner length are the same. They say the reason it flat lines on the dyno is simply not enough air into the engine and said that even if we had replaced the intake and not the 58mm TB, we would need the larger monoblade anyway. Said in cooler weather (it was 86 yesterday and somewhat low air pressure) it would make more because of the denser charge of air.

That's straight from the Pro stock boys, they also said the cam was fine, but.... “puny.” Guess it’s all relative considering the source.

Sheet metal intake anyone?

 

Not saying they are wrong but, hey I think they are wrong. Mindgame and one or two others have made over 500 rwhp with the stock intake, granted those were six speed cars but still. MG's runner spacers do not band-aid that intake that much, I mean geez that intake is feeding 18* heads that have to be flowing 340 cfm+. I think he said his spacers were like and inch or so thick.

I would do a cam change first, that cam seems pretty small, put the injectors in, check my springs(coil bind, seat pressure etc) and tune on it.

Are you sure those heads flow what you think they do? Seen more than one bogus bench.



David

 

The heads were origionally flowed by Lloyd Elloitt and then again by Trevor Johnson so I have a lot of confidence that they are real. Plus... it's making good power up to 7200 rpm and shows no hit of slowing down. Just doesn't peak like a normal dyno sheet.

Ya, this is a real pisser as I've seen cars making more power on the dyno with stock ported intake, but not that much more. Really strange looking dyno sheet as something for sure is hitting the wall but we did pick up 13 hp by just blowing a fan into the intake ahead of the MAF so air for whatever reason seems to be an issue.

 

Denny,
Have you looked into the Bosch EV-14 injectors yet? I went through the whole 'bad injector' debacle too, and found through research and injector spray testing that the EV-14's were consistently the best pattern, best flow for how they are advertised and getting a matched set was pretty easy. They are 36# 3-bar injectors.

 

I didn't see it mentioned, but are you using an Opti-spark? We tried two brand new Optis on my engine and both exhibited the same break-up above ~6,500 rpm. However, it recovered at higher rpm. Static CR was only 11.5:1 on my engine, with a larger (260/266 @ 0.050") cam. It's possible that it's the ignition system (and higher compression ratio) that's holding you back.

 

Hmmm, wish I said that before.... "With all of that said.... I think its the intake."

If you ever see the list of cams that RMRE uses... they don't go below 260* @ .050

This is the smallest one

420-106 E129891 254º/260º .370”/.370” .629”/.629” 108º

http://www.rehermorrison.com/items/camspecs.gif

It's all relative... then again they don't do street motors, they do Big Block Drag Race motors. That's something where the motors are big, the cams are big and the women pee standing up.

Bret

 

Not a problem with ignition as the dyno sheets are very smooth and pulls very hard to 6500 rpm.

I'm going to fix the little stuff and already ordered flow matched 42lb svo (which I understand are Bosch) and fix the leak from porting the headers. We'll see what happens with the injectors but my feeling right now is the engine is not getting enough air.