I am assuming this is advanced tech material, if not, I apoligize.

To start Im considering the use of a nitromethane based fuel additive for the purpose increasing horsepower not octane. Im looking to make another 50 or so HP all the time (unlike N2O) using Problends Fast Forward Nitro additive. Ive done some research and came up with limited information. From what I can tell any more than 1% Nitro by volume will need an increase in fuel by that porportional amount. Seems that Nitro carries its own oxygen in the neighborhood of 49.5% by volume that is released during combustion, similar to n2o. And although it increases cylclic pressure it has a slower burn rate, unlike n2o. The additive though may mix the nitromethane with nitrobenzene or propylene oxide to increase the burn rate.

Now for the questions, since nitro is mixed with the fuel and therefore will be burning all time will the PCM be able to adjust the fuel ratio correctly? The way I see it the o2's should see a lean condition from the extra oxygen and add more fuel to compensate to keep the AFR in check but the MAF will not see an increase in GPS. I know that changes in fuel pressure or an aftermarket MAF can be nulled by the PCM, so is it possible it would correct in the same way on Nitro? The PCM has the power to adjust AFR based on climatic conditions, a 20HP difference can be seen in extreme changes of weather(DA).

If possible I would like this to be a discussion, not, no it cant be done plain and simple.
Check out this link:
www.pro-blend.com/tech1616.html#formulations
Thanks Kevin.

 

Sure, it probably can be done:

1.25% of this $215.12/gallon (+ shipping) mix probably won't get you 50 hp. How often are you at wide open throttle? That's the only time your engine is making it's max power. All that time you are cruising you are just pushing that stuff out the tailpipe.

Assuming free shipping (of nitro? sure.), your 20 gallon fillup will cost you $35 for gas (@$1.75 per) and about $54 for Pro-Blend. If you use it for 10,000 miles at 20 mpg average, you'll need $1344.50 worth. It won't take that long before you could have built a stroker with a real 50 more hp.


My $.02.

 

Thanks for the reply Old Stroker. I have considerd the cost and had forgot to mention that I really dont drive the car much, maybe 1000-1500 miles a year and most of it is to the track so the cost wouldnt be all that bad, besides when its all used up there wouldnt be $1000 worth of equipment laying around if I decided not to use it anymore as there would be with a nitrous kit.

Suposedly the amount of nitro in % by voulume increases output in HP by that amount if used alone, so you would be correct that 1.25% would not make 50 HP. But with the addition of accelerators and plastisizors, 1% of nitro "can" make around 20-30 HP.

 

There's one problem with this that I see other than the cost (It is now $850 a drum for us racers). Nitro will not mix with gasoline. It does mix with methanol, but even if it is premixed with a little methanol, I would bet that it would then pool up and not mix the the gas. Then you would probably get a shot of pure nitro (or nitro/methanol mix) at some point during your drive. I know you are looking at small percentages, but there are lots of little things that you must look at. Nitro requires LOTS of timing. In our race car, we run as much as 60 degrees of initial timing. The burn rate is that slow. Also, it is VERY explosive under pressure. Even in small quantities, your pistons and rods will not hold up very long.

 

I have heard that it wont mix with gasoline in its pure form but the plasticizors in the additive allow mixing up to 10% total nitro. From what Ive read the plasticizor allows the nitro gobules to stay suspended in pump gas as well as lubricate the top side of the pistons.

Im not sure about the timing issue when used in gas, I would guess it would need to be advanced but probably not as much as when mixed with alcohol. Alky removes alot of heat and is needed in a much higher volume.

Edit:
I didnt really consider the extra pressure on the short block. I guess thats why the bigboys run such heavy weight oil. Do you think it would be much with just 30HP worth?

 

An interesting subject to discuss, I hope to learn more from any additional posts. I will say that nitROUS is gonna be a lot more practical than nitRO. That stuff VERY toxic, not to mention explosive. I'd prefer not even to handle it, but maybe I'm just a wussy or something.

Anyway, intreresting topic.

Rich Krause

 

Nahhhhh, Rich it really isn't bad to handle, unless you hit it with a hammer, or somehow compress it. That's when it gets ugly. You can try to light it all you want with an open flame and it won't do anything. But if you get it in an open cut or in your eyes, then you are in a world of hurt!! It doesn't seem to do permanant damage (I've gotten plenty in my eyes and cuts), but it HURTS A LOT!! Oh, and don't let it get on plastic- it will melt it fast! Other than those things, it's not bad to handle!

 

Where do you store it? Separate shed or something? When I was running race fuel, it would make me nervous to have a drum in my garage.

Rich Krause

 

Well, if that's the case, then that issue won't be a problem.



I would tend to agree, that it wouldn't need nearly the same amount of timing, but maybe a couple degrees.

Well, with just 30hp more you probably wouldn't see much wear, but I don't know (What I do know is a cap full of nitro in a scooter will blow it up in less than a minute!!
)

I must admit, I am no expert on nitro, I just work on cars that use it for fuel as my day job.

 

Well, we don't really store it. Because it is so expensive and it is HAZMAT, we try not to haul it in the rigs or keep it at the shop. But if we did have a drum, (we do right now at the shop) it is stored outside) Usually, VP Fuels (the supplier) hauls and stores it for the teams. We usually do have a few gallons of it in fuel jugs in the trailer (already mixed that didn't get used yet), but we don't worry about it.

 

What about using nitromethane as the wet side to a nitrous kit? Or a lower nitromethane/methanol mix, like 50/50 or 30/70, ect?

Run a dedicated fuel cell in back for the wet side, fill it with the good stuff so you only use it on the bottle. It'd provide extra power and extra octane.

It'd probably just be easier to put bigger pills in and fill the dedicated fuel tank with C16.

 

Top fuel teams carry it all over the country in the same trailer as the cars. Handleing does require care,you dont want to strike it, but it is hardly flamable. If it had just 4 more degrees of flash point it would not need the flamable designation.

I couldnt even imagine the cylinder pressures incurred if used as the "wet" side of nitrous Though a very small amount may be of some benifit to reduce the amount of pulled timing.

Just a capful belw up the scooter! Nitro R/C cars can run 35,000 RPM on 25% nitro and last quite some time.

So does anyone want to comment on how a factory style EFI system would handle the fuel enrichment needed for nitro?

 

as far as i know,the stock ecm ignores the O2's at WOT,so im not sure how you will add the extra fuel needed to compensate. Also im not sure how the Orings in the fuel system would stand up to the nitro.

as far as N2O and Nitro,thats something i wouldnt even want to experiment with,way too much cylinder pressure IMO.

 

The WOT issue is what Im having trouble with (In my mind anyway) In closed loop the PCM should be able to modify the AFR without much trouble with constant feed back from the o2's, but this is where Im confused, with certin changes such as increased fuel pressure the PCM will eventually correct for it even at WOT or open loop based on cell 16 (I believe) information in closed loop. Kinda like if you parked your car after running in 100deg temps with a baro of 29.30 then running it the next morning with a temp of 40deg and baro of 30.40. The PCM would be lean at WOT untill it relearned. So would it be safe to say that it would eventually learn the fuel curve at WOT on nitro? I know Fred has a really good grasp of how this works....maybe you could chime in?

 

In the new version of LT1_Edit you can lock the BLM's in cell 16 (or is it 18, or both, I forget) and avoid the issue you raise. But the bigger issue is "are O2 sensors an accurate way to read AF ratio with a mixture of nitro and gas"? I doubt they are, and it leaves open the question of what the right AF ratio for that fuel combo would be. Who knows?

Rich Krause