Headporting question
I know a lot of guys use die grinders and just start hogging out their heads but the idea of not removing material evenly on every port/chamber/etc kind of turns me away from going that rought. I know it's not crucial and a few thousands might not make a huge difference but I'm a perfectionist and I don't want to kill port velocity by over boaring them.
I was wondering, could you get a bridgeport or "Verticle Mill" with a dividing head and do a descent job ? I know it would require a custom fixture but would it be worth the trouble ?
Also, I am a rookie when it comes to head work so if anybody has any good reading material online or know of any good books let me know.
I was wondering, could you get a bridgeport or "Verticle Mill" with a dividing head and do a descent job ? I know it would require a custom fixture but would it be worth the trouble ?
Also, I am a rookie when it comes to head work so if anybody has any good reading material online or know of any good books let me know.
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by TheBlur
I know a lot of guys use die grinders and just start hogging out their heads but the idea of not removing material evenly on every port/chamber/etc kind of turns me away from going that rought. I know it's not crucial and a few thousands might not make a huge difference but I'm a perfectionist and I don't want to kill port velocity by over boaring them.
I was wondering, could you get a bridgeport or "Verticle Mill" with a dividing head and do a descent job ? I know it would require a custom fixture but would it be worth the trouble ?
Also, I am a rookie when it comes to head work so if anybody has any good reading material online or know of any good books let me know.
I was wondering, could you get a bridgeport or "Verticle Mill" with a dividing head and do a descent job ? I know it would require a custom fixture but would it be worth the trouble ?
Also, I am a rookie when it comes to head work so if anybody has any good reading material online or know of any good books let me know.
A lot like sculpting, you just need to remove the material that doesn't belong there. Knowing what to remove is more difficult than doing it.
To answer your question, a non-CNC vertical mill can't get to all the contoured surfaces in the ports with just X, Y and Z-axis motions. Even if it is a 5 or more axis CNC, you still need to tell the computer what shape you want the port. Usually this is done by replicating a good port that has been hand ported.
The Search function is very useful on this forum.
David Vizard has some good books on cylinder head porting. Joe Mondello runs a school for porting and has some literature on it. Google is your friend.
FWIW, the engine builders I know do not do their own head porting, and the good head porters I know don't build engines. Similarly, the surgeons I know don't do MRIs or CT scans, and the radiololgists I know don't do surgery. Sure, all MDs do a "surgery rotation" and a "radiology rotation" during med school, but I don't want a doc who doesn't do surgery all the time cutting on me. Similarly I would have Bret (SStrokerAce) build my engine, but I wouldn't have him port the heads.
My $.02
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by OldSStroker
FWIW, the engine builders I know do not do their own head porting, and the good head porters I know don't build engines. Similarly, the surgeons I know don't do MRIs or CT scans, and the radiololgists I know don't do surgery. Sure, all MDs do a "surgery rotation" and a "radiology rotation" during med school, but I don't want a doc who doesn't do surgery all the time cutting on me. Similarly I would have Bret (SStrokerAce) build my engine, but I wouldn't have him port the heads.
My $.02
My $.02
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by OldSStroker
Similarly I would have Bret (SStrokerAce) build my engine, but I wouldn't have him port the heads.
Anyways neither would I.
There are some guys who can do both engine building and head porting. I'd rather spend my time working on getting everything else right and get the best heads for the motor that I can. The biggest deal is that you have to understand what the head needs to do and what the porter is doing in there even if you can't do it yourself.
Bret
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Oh thanks for the vote of confidence dad!
Anyways neither would I.
There are some guys who can do both engine building and head porting. I'd rather spend my time working on getting everything else right and get the best heads for the motor that I can. The biggest deal is that you have to understand what the head needs to do and what the porter is doing in there even if you can't do it yourself.
Bret
Anyways neither would I.
There are some guys who can do both engine building and head porting. I'd rather spend my time working on getting everything else right and get the best heads for the motor that I can. The biggest deal is that you have to understand what the head needs to do and what the porter is doing in there even if you can't do it yourself.
Bret
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by unstable bob
Lissen PUNK...you are gonna PORT MY HEADS... and you are gonna BUILD MY ENGINE...and yer GONNA LIKE IT!!!!
You make my day just about every time you post, UB.
Jon
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by unstable bob
Lissen PUNK...you are gonna PORT MY HEADS... and you are gonna BUILD MY ENGINE...and yer GONNA LIKE IT!!!!
ha ha thats funny
-john
Originally Posted by OldSStroker
ROFLMAO!
You make my day just about every time you post, UB.
Jon
You make my day just about every time you post, UB.
Jon
Re: Headporting question
Originally Posted by TheBlur
I know a lot of guys use die grinders and just start hogging out their heads but the idea of not removing material evenly on every port/chamber/etc kind of turns me away from going that route.
Originally Posted by TheBlur
I know it's not crucial and a few thousandths might not make a huge difference but I'm a perfectionist and I don't want to kill port velocity by over boring them.
Originally Posted by TheBlur
I was wondering, could you get a bridgeport or 'Vertical Mill' with a dividing head and do a descent job ? I know it would require a custom fixture but would it be worth the trouble?
Originally Posted by TheBlur
Also, I am a rookie when it comes to head work so if anybody has any good reading material online or know of any good books let me know.
Last edited by arnie; May 22, 2005 at 07:47 PM.
Originally Posted by arnie
It's not the rate of removal that determines the end product, it is knowing where you are going to end up. Either with or without flow bench testing, along with the necessary skill, using templates can go a long way in duplicating port shapes. Yes, skill IS required. You claim to be a perfectionist. Depending on how much time you intent on investing in this one set of heads, using the appropriate material poured into the ported ports, and 'pulled' out for analysis/inspection can be very revealing, in regards to an overview of your accomplishment.
A "few thousandths" won't do it, but a 16th here or there EASILY could. Anyway, then do our homework. You'd be surprised how much quality info can be gained by following various lists/forums. One bit at a time. If you want the info now, it ain't gonna happen. Or, you can choose to be a bit conservative. No, it won't give you the flow of a top flight expert, but you won't be hurting yourself either. It depends. You want the upmost in flow gains, or do you want to make respectable gains for cheap.
In a word... No, just not practical.
In that case, what I stated above, may be ill advised. Vizard, Yunick, even GM endorsed publications can be helpful. You did not state how 'competitive' you expect the finished product to be. Others have advised to go to a pro for the headwork. I agree, as to that being good, sound, safe advice. If that is your intent, then make an effort to seek out a 'quality' pro. As pros go, not all are equal in results you pay for. Frankly, AFAIC, some head porting/engine building 'pros' (not unlike some MDs) should be in another line of work. As the standing joke goes, "what do ya call a med student that graduates at the BOTTOM of his class?" A doctor!!! I've looked as various diplomas hanging on walls in patient rooms, and not one did I see, that included the doctor's 'ranking' in his/her graduating class. It is flawed reasoning, to accept, that a person's title, automatically makes that person qualified. As the lesser qualified 'pros' remain in business, it comes down to (ironically) how knowledgeable the 'customer' is in regards to the service they are seeking. Because ignorance is bliss, blind faith/trust in a given pro just doesn't cut it with me. The best to you in your endeavor.
A "few thousandths" won't do it, but a 16th here or there EASILY could. Anyway, then do our homework. You'd be surprised how much quality info can be gained by following various lists/forums. One bit at a time. If you want the info now, it ain't gonna happen. Or, you can choose to be a bit conservative. No, it won't give you the flow of a top flight expert, but you won't be hurting yourself either. It depends. You want the upmost in flow gains, or do you want to make respectable gains for cheap.
In a word... No, just not practical.
In that case, what I stated above, may be ill advised. Vizard, Yunick, even GM endorsed publications can be helpful. You did not state how 'competitive' you expect the finished product to be. Others have advised to go to a pro for the headwork. I agree, as to that being good, sound, safe advice. If that is your intent, then make an effort to seek out a 'quality' pro. As pros go, not all are equal in results you pay for. Frankly, AFAIC, some head porting/engine building 'pros' (not unlike some MDs) should be in another line of work. As the standing joke goes, "what do ya call a med student that graduates at the BOTTOM of his class?" A doctor!!! I've looked as various diplomas hanging on walls in patient rooms, and not one did I see, that included the doctor's 'ranking' in his/her graduating class. It is flawed reasoning, to accept, that a person's title, automatically makes that person qualified. As the lesser qualified 'pros' remain in business, it comes down to (ironically) how knowledgeable the 'customer' is in regards to the service they are seeking. Because ignorance is bliss, blind faith/trust in a given pro just doesn't cut it with me. The best to you in your endeavor.
I really appreciate the time you took out to give me such a well thought out and very insightful answer. Thank you very much
Lance


