Expected valve train life at higher RPM's
10-31-2007, 12:19 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Expected valve train life at higher RPM's
Hey guys just wondering what the expected life span of "high rpm" street motor is? Just curious as to what I am in for. My new little "LT1" will be spinning up to about 8500ish.
Will I be able to drive/race a package like this for year with out complete replacement, I'm figuring about 10k mile and about 100 passes(Barring any major catastrophies). Main concern being valve spring life, I plan on new ones every winter.
Just curious as to what kinda durability people are getting out of similar applications. I realize there are alot of factors that weigh into valve train life.
I have Crower cut away solids with pin oiling for the lifters, the cam will be a custom grind, I would guess lift in the .750 range and duration in the 260's, but I'm not a cam grinder, I will leave the specifics the pro's.
Any ideas on how to get the maximum life out of it? Or common pit falls?
Will I be able to drive/race a package like this for year with out complete replacement, I'm figuring about 10k mile and about 100 passes(Barring any major catastrophies). Main concern being valve spring life, I plan on new ones every winter.
Just curious as to what kinda durability people are getting out of similar applications. I realize there are alot of factors that weigh into valve train life.
I have Crower cut away solids with pin oiling for the lifters, the cam will be a custom grind, I would guess lift in the .750 range and duration in the 260's, but I'm not a cam grinder, I will leave the specifics the pro's.
Any ideas on how to get the maximum life out of it? Or common pit falls?
10-31-2007, 12:51 AM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Sorry I left all of that out, I do have Jesel J2k 1.6 Rockers, the heads already have Ferrea Stainless Valves, and Isky Springs Pn 9985(I think, they are getting checked) and Titainium retainers.
Will the SS valves hurt me? Is it worth the extra cost to upgrade them? They were installed in the heads when I bought them and are brand new.
I though spring oilers were bad ju-ju on a street motor as too much oil would be hung up in the top end?
The guy I bough the heads off of had been running these heads and the same valve train on his sprint car and was replacing springs about 2-3 time per season, but I'd imagine a sprint car is alot harder on this stuff than me cruising to work and beating it on the weekends. He said there max RPM was 8700 with the springs and valve he had in it, he would divulge any cam specs other than what I posted above. He was making around 740hp with what he called a restrictive Kinsler injection system.
Last edited by 95ttoplt1; 10-31-2007 at 12:54 AM.
10-31-2007, 01:05 AM
#4
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Jesus heavy (I mean mass wise) springs and valves batman! That would be my #1 requirement if you want the rest of the valvetrain to live a decent life.
Those springs are around 170g or something silly, and the valves are never going to be light enough.
I don't know how you are going to drive around a camshaft that will work up to 8500rpm, then again I haven't had to make a "street" cam that has to do that.
Bret
Those springs are around 170g or something silly, and the valves are never going to be light enough.
I don't know how you are going to drive around a camshaft that will work up to 8500rpm, then again I haven't had to make a "street" cam that has to do that.
Bret
10-31-2007, 01:13 AM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Jesus heavy (I mean mass wise) springs and valves batman! That would be my #1 requirement if you want the rest of the valvetrain to live a decent life.
Those springs are around 170g or something silly, and the valves are never going to be light enough.
I don't know how you are going to drive around a camshaft that will work up to 8500rpm, then again I haven't had to make a "street" cam that has to do that.
Bret
Those springs are around 170g or something silly, and the valves are never going to be light enough.
I don't know how you are going to drive around a camshaft that will work up to 8500rpm, then again I haven't had to make a "street" cam that has to do that.
Bret
(did I mention this will be a pump gas motor?) So you guys think swapping out the Stainless for Titainium is a requirement as well as different springs? The heads are at the porter/cam grinders now and I'm sure they have there whole game plan, I was just wondering what I am getting myself into.
What kinda springs would be what a set-up like this typically run? I am looking to stay under 400 bucks per set if possible, if I have to spend more but get better life then of course that would be an option as well.
And tuning will be alot of fun with this combo as well, but it will be mostley track so I can put up with some bad manners. Trans will be a 4l80e and probably a 4.88 gear.
Are the cam numbers up top close to what will be required?
BTW Bret, I still am not sure who is grinding the cam.....trying to decide if what I want to do is even possible.
Last edited by 95ttoplt1; 10-31-2007 at 01:17 AM.
10-31-2007, 01:51 AM
#6
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Who is doing the heads? Someone who has done work with Ti valves on street cars would be one of my requirements, not too many of those guys around.
Ti valves, a killer VJ and some awesome springs are definately part of the package here.
I would have to take a serious look at it, anything can be done to work but if that's the optimum thing to do or not is the question. You can make a cam that will work but if the motor wants to work up there is part of the equation.
The Vic E probably doesn't have enough cross section to feed 370" well enough at 8500rpm
Bret
Ti valves, a killer VJ and some awesome springs are definately part of the package here.
I would have to take a serious look at it, anything can be done to work but if that's the optimum thing to do or not is the question. You can make a cam that will work but if the motor wants to work up there is part of the equation.
The Vic E probably doesn't have enough cross section to feed 370" well enough at 8500rpm
Bret
10-31-2007, 05:16 AM
#7
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 10,745
Bret knows more about this stuff than I do. And a further disclaimer is that I have never seen or heard of an 8,500rpm OHV street motor. In fact, I don't know why someone would build one. All that taken into consideration, maybe I wil just keep my opinion to myself.
Rich
Rich
10-31-2007, 08:12 AM
#8
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Mobile, Ala..USA
Posts: 1,935
Bret knows more about this stuff than I do. And a further disclaimer is that I have never seen or heard of an 8,500rpm OHV street motor. In fact, I don't know why someone would build one. All that taken into consideration, maybe I wil just keep my opinion to myself.
Rich
Rich
Screw a 370, build a 383/396 for those heads
Camshaft is a BIG determining factor on power peak. An engine like that would SUCK on the street, big gear, big stall, high maintenance....not for me.
David
10-31-2007, 08:16 AM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 2,931
99ttopLT1, what are your power goals for your pump gas street driven 370? Rather than start with rpm, start with what power you need, the heads you have available, the manifold, etc and then back into the rpm you need.
The sprint car engine didn't make 740 on pump gas. What do you realistically want to make? Does it really need to spin 8500?
$400/set springs will be one of your smaller problems if you can get good ones for that. As Bret said, you need to get lots of mass out of most of the valve train parts. Ti intakes, low mass springs, Ti or better yet, exotic steel retainers, and $30/ea pushrods should be on your shopping list. Piston/pin and rod mass will also be a consideration for 8500.
What is you budget? I don't think you you are talking a total number that starts with "1".
One little part of me says, "Maybe this guy just wants to show folks his engine will spin to 8500." That's a scary thought, but it isn't the first time. In that case I recommend using a large 6-cylinder tach mounted prominently on the instrument panel for your passengers to see. Do the math.
The sprint car engine didn't make 740 on pump gas. What do you realistically want to make? Does it really need to spin 8500?
$400/set springs will be one of your smaller problems if you can get good ones for that. As Bret said, you need to get lots of mass out of most of the valve train parts. Ti intakes, low mass springs, Ti or better yet, exotic steel retainers, and $30/ea pushrods should be on your shopping list. Piston/pin and rod mass will also be a consideration for 8500.
What is you budget? I don't think you you are talking a total number that starts with "1".
One little part of me says, "Maybe this guy just wants to show folks his engine will spin to 8500." That's a scary thought, but it isn't the first time. In that case I recommend using a large 6-cylinder tach mounted prominently on the instrument panel for your passengers to see. Do the math.
10-31-2007, 09:14 AM
#10
Banned
Join Date: May 2003
Location: LA (lower Alabama)
Posts: 6,661
8500RPM's is for trailer queens or people with a LOT of money or people who like to work on their car,especially if it is street driven.
A LOT of people cant keep them together at under 7000RPM'S
An engine like that,that will stay together unreasonable will cost over $50,000 and need freshening often.
It will need the best of everything. Might look into a ex Pro Truck engine for sale for 'bout 35/40,000 and use it,but not on pump gas.
If ya just want HP 434CID-8/71-bug catcher=street HP and a pretty mild mannered set up, 'till ya touch the gas.
"O" did I mention the cool factor.
A LOT of people cant keep them together at under 7000RPM'S
An engine like that,that will stay together unreasonable will cost over $50,000 and need freshening often.
It will need the best of everything. Might look into a ex Pro Truck engine for sale for 'bout 35/40,000 and use it,but not on pump gas.
If ya just want HP 434CID-8/71-bug catcher=street HP and a pretty mild mannered set up, 'till ya touch the gas.
"O" did I mention the cool factor.
10-31-2007, 03:09 PM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Who is doing the heads? Someone who has done work with Ti valves on street cars would be one of my requirements, not too many of those guys around.
Ti valves, a killer VJ and some awesome springs are definately part of the package here.
I would have to take a serious look at it, anything can be done to work but if that's the optimum thing to do or not is the question. You can make a cam that will work but if the motor wants to work up there is part of the equation.
The Vic E probably doesn't have enough cross section to feed 370" well enough at 8500rpm
Bret
Ti valves, a killer VJ and some awesome springs are definately part of the package here.
I would have to take a serious look at it, anything can be done to work but if that's the optimum thing to do or not is the question. You can make a cam that will work but if the motor wants to work up there is part of the equation.
The Vic E probably doesn't have enough cross section to feed 370" well enough at 8500rpm
Bret
You think the Vic E is too small?? I saw everyone was using the Vic_Jr's and having pretty good results, the Vic-E(in all my ignorance) seemed better suited to my application with the larger plenum area ect et..
I reliaze the larger plenum might make for more surge while street driving but that is of a lesser concern than the ultimate power goals.
Bret knows more about this stuff than I do. And a further disclaimer is that I have never seen or heard of an 8,500rpm OHV street motor. In fact, I don't know why someone would build one. All that taken into consideration, maybe I wil just keep my opinion to myself.
Rich
Rich
. Please share you opinions as I know I sound nuts, but who of us isn't alittle off our rocker.Well when you have a 370 inch motor with All Pro 227's....it kinda falls that way.
Screw a 370, build a 383/396 for those heads
Camshaft is a BIG determining factor on power peak. An engine like that would SUCK on the street, big gear, big stall, high maintenance....not for me.
David
Screw a 370, build a 383/396 for those heads
Camshaft is a BIG determining factor on power peak. An engine like that would SUCK on the street, big gear, big stall, high maintenance....not for me.
David
99ttopLT1, what are your power goals for your pump gas street driven 370? Rather than start with rpm, start with what power you need, the heads you have available, the manifold, etc and then back into the rpm you need.
Enter the dream, I would like to get 700hp at the flywheel, on pump gas, I would like for the car(3500lbs) to run 10.50's on motor, then start playing with the nitrous
The sprint car engine didn't make 740 on pump gas. What do you realistically want to make? Does it really need to spin 8500?
Nope, he made that on alcohol, with what he called a very restrictive Kinsler set that was class mandated, he said there was alot of power left and if he had his way they would have ran a single-plain that they tested with
$400/set springs will be one of your smaller problems if you can get good ones for that. As Bret said, you need to get lots of mass out of most of the valve train parts. Ti intakes, low mass springs, Ti or better yet, exotic steel retainers, and $30/ea pushrods should be on your shopping list. Piston/pin and rod mass will also be a consideration for 8500.
Cool, the 400 springs are a wish like everything else. It looks like I will be swapping valves and springs(which I had figured springs at least to start with). Pistons are not made yet, I am waiting for cam specs, and combustion chamber specs before I jump there.
What is you budget? I don't think you you are talking a total number that starts with "1".
Don't have a set number in mind, just kinda raiding my piggy bank as I need, by no means an unlimited budget(just an Army man). I already have alot of the expensive stuff(I think), I think I get the rest finished up for about $7500.00(engine wise)
One little part of me says, "Maybe this guy just wants to show folks his engine will spin to 8500." That's a scary thought, but it isn't the first time. In that case I recommend using a large 6-cylinder tach mounted prominently on the instrument panel for your passengers to see. Do the math.
You crack me up, I don't just want to turn those RPM, but I don 't think I can get to my goals with out doing so
Enter the dream, I would like to get 700hp at the flywheel, on pump gas, I would like for the car(3500lbs) to run 10.50's on motor, then start playing with the nitrous
The sprint car engine didn't make 740 on pump gas. What do you realistically want to make? Does it really need to spin 8500?
Nope, he made that on alcohol, with what he called a very restrictive Kinsler set that was class mandated, he said there was alot of power left and if he had his way they would have ran a single-plain that they tested with
$400/set springs will be one of your smaller problems if you can get good ones for that. As Bret said, you need to get lots of mass out of most of the valve train parts. Ti intakes, low mass springs, Ti or better yet, exotic steel retainers, and $30/ea pushrods should be on your shopping list. Piston/pin and rod mass will also be a consideration for 8500.
Cool, the 400 springs are a wish like everything else. It looks like I will be swapping valves and springs(which I had figured springs at least to start with). Pistons are not made yet, I am waiting for cam specs, and combustion chamber specs before I jump there.
What is you budget? I don't think you you are talking a total number that starts with "1".
Don't have a set number in mind, just kinda raiding my piggy bank as I need, by no means an unlimited budget(just an Army man). I already have alot of the expensive stuff(I think), I think I get the rest finished up for about $7500.00(engine wise)
One little part of me says, "Maybe this guy just wants to show folks his engine will spin to 8500." That's a scary thought, but it isn't the first time. In that case I recommend using a large 6-cylinder tach mounted prominently on the instrument panel for your passengers to see. Do the math.
You crack me up, I don't just want to turn those RPM, but I don 't think I can get to my goals with out doing so
So the goals are:
700FWHP on pump gas
Drive it to work a couple times a week
10.50's on motor/pumpgas
Parts I already have:
Cola crank 3.625
Eagle Rods 6.125
All Pro 227's being converted, CNC'd by All Pro, hand finish by AI
Vic-E converted to EFI, ported, being finished by AI
Jesel J2k rockers offset for the heads
Is it possible with out spinning that high?
10-31-2007, 03:12 PM
#12
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,518
Well with that being said might as well have them do the valvetrain for ya since in their opinion I don't know dick. (feeling is mutual)
Honestly I don't think there are many people out there that can get that to work and I know I wouldn't touch it unless the parts were all here in front of me to fix the correct way.
Bret
Honestly I don't think there are many people out there that can get that to work and I know I wouldn't touch it unless the parts were all here in front of me to fix the correct way.
Bret
10-31-2007, 03:16 PM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
Well with that being said might as well have them do the valvetrain for ya since in their opinion I don't know dick. (feeling is mutual)
Honestly I don't think there are many people out there that can get that to work and I know I wouldn't touch it unless the parts were all here in front of me to fix the correct way.
Bret
Honestly I don't think there are many people out there that can get that to work and I know I wouldn't touch it unless the parts were all here in front of me to fix the correct way.
Bret
Thats why I sent everything, I'll give them a shot and see what happens.
Do you think the goals are attainable with a lower RPM?
10-31-2007, 03:24 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: York, PA
Posts: 203
A few questions...
1. Why are you putting RPM above reliability and power? You can get the power you need with much lower RPM.
2. The intake will take much work.
3. Why did you pick the All-Pro heads? Are they a must?
1. Why are you putting RPM above reliability and power? You can get the power you need with much lower RPM.
2. The intake will take much work.
3. Why did you pick the All-Pro heads? Are they a must?
10-31-2007, 03:31 PM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 411
A few questions...
1. Why are you putting RPM above reliability and power? You can get the power you need with much lower RPM.
RPM is not the ultimate goal, the power and time slip are. I didn't think I could get the power with out the RPM
2. The intake will take much work.
Thats not a question
, It has had a bunch of work done to it already, and I'm sure it still has a ways to go
3. Why did you pick the All-Pro heads? Are they a must?
I had planned on this thing needing some good upper RPM airflow to make the power I am looking for and in talking with a bunch of different people these heads seemed to be the ticket, I even found a set that fit my budget. They are a must at this point as they are paid for. I understand they might not be the best head out there but I think they are pretty good.
1. Why are you putting RPM above reliability and power? You can get the power you need with much lower RPM.
RPM is not the ultimate goal, the power and time slip are. I didn't think I could get the power with out the RPM
2. The intake will take much work.
Thats not a question
, It has had a bunch of work done to it already, and I'm sure it still has a ways to go3. Why did you pick the All-Pro heads? Are they a must?
I had planned on this thing needing some good upper RPM airflow to make the power I am looking for and in talking with a bunch of different people these heads seemed to be the ticket, I even found a set that fit my budget. They are a must at this point as they are paid for. I understand they might not be the best head out there but I think they are pretty good.