Engine builders. Have you sleeved and LT1?
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 10,745
From: Buffalo, New York
Originally posted by Z28SORR
I agree. But what if your one of those people, you know the ones, where it HAS to be an LT1.
I have the, fastest, biggest, coolest, etc. "LT1" in the world!!
I agree. But what if your one of those people, you know the ones, where it HAS to be an LT1.
I have the, fastest, biggest, coolest, etc. "LT1" in the world!!
Rich
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
I can surely understand that situation... But I guess the 7L is a more important thing than the heads maybe. For instance.. my heads did flow almost 300cfm @ 600 lift with good mid numbers and not that big ports. If going the supercharger way, would I still need bigger heads than 220cc and still be streetable? The idea is to make the most power out of pump gas. Which was why I wanted the 7L option.
Also I do understand your point that if you are going to go into spending that ammount of $ into a block is better to go the 15* head anywys and get even more flow out of them. The best advantage of the bowtie block for me is that it is taller and you can have a better configuration there for the longer stroke and rod/stroke ratio. But, does the bowtie bolt right up to the T56 and accessories from the LT1? is it cheaper to do a converion to a 7L bowtie vs ls6 7L? I like the idea that I can use the stock Engine management from an ls6 as I have dealt with fast systems and they are not as configurable for daily driving as the lsx ones. If I went with the 15* heads could I still use the lt4 intake?
Also I do understand your point that if you are going to go into spending that ammount of $ into a block is better to go the 15* head anywys and get even more flow out of them. The best advantage of the bowtie block for me is that it is taller and you can have a better configuration there for the longer stroke and rod/stroke ratio. But, does the bowtie bolt right up to the T56 and accessories from the LT1? is it cheaper to do a converion to a 7L bowtie vs ls6 7L? I like the idea that I can use the stock Engine management from an ls6 as I have dealt with fast systems and they are not as configurable for daily driving as the lsx ones. If I went with the 15* heads could I still use the lt4 intake?
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,371
From: Kilgore TX 75662
Originally posted by rskrause
disassemble block
clean
inspect (including taking multiple measurements)
pressure test
re-tap bolt holes
deburr
purchase main caps
machine for and install main caps
align bore and hone mains
clearance for stroke
deck block
machine for sleeves
purchase and install sleeves
bore and hone sleeves
index lifter bores
paint
Figure $2,500-3,000 and it's still a stock block which is not as strong or as durable as a Bowtie or aftermarket piece.
Rich
disassemble block
clean
inspect (including taking multiple measurements)
pressure test
re-tap bolt holes
deburr
purchase main caps
machine for and install main caps
align bore and hone mains
clearance for stroke
deck block
machine for sleeves
purchase and install sleeves
bore and hone sleeves
index lifter bores
paint
Figure $2,500-3,000 and it's still a stock block which is not as strong or as durable as a Bowtie or aftermarket piece.
Rich
We've had people on this board that have done this. The only thing that keeps being brought up when I mention this idea is the thickness of the cylinder wall after boring out the walls to fit the big bore sleeve in? I could use a wet sleeve that would be a repair sleeve for a 400 block. Another idea is possibly using the sleeves for the LS1. I'll check around the School to see if there are any of those floating around that havne't been installed or that were messed up during install.
I just thought of something. With the availability of sonic thickness testers now I wouldn't be surprised if a few of our members have sonic checked LT1 blocks.... I'll start a thread on that topic under LT1 Tech.
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,248
From: Bountiful, Utah
Reverse cooling yoursellf a traditional SBC block {bowtie block}with a set of proaction head and ditch that problem pluged Ing trigger they called a opti. Then just add a these three letters "SBC" in your statement where " LT1" is.
just my ramblings
just my ramblings
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
Originally posted by The Highlander
I can surely understand that situation... But I guess the 7L is a more important thing than the heads maybe. For instance.. my heads did flow almost 300cfm @ 600 lift with good mid numbers and not that big ports. If going the supercharger way, would I still need bigger heads than 220cc and still be streetable? The idea is to make the most power out of pump gas. Which was why I wanted the 7L option.
Also I do understand your point that if you are going to go into spending that ammount of $ into a block is better to go the 15* head anywys and get even more flow out of them. The best advantage of the bowtie block for me is that it is taller and you can have a better configuration there for the longer stroke and rod/stroke ratio. But, does the bowtie bolt right up to the T56 and accessories from the LT1? is it cheaper to do a converion to a 7L bowtie vs ls6 7L? I like the idea that I can use the stock Engine management from an ls6 as I have dealt with fast systems and they are not as configurable for daily driving as the lsx ones. If I went with the 15* heads could I still use the lt4 intake?
I can surely understand that situation... But I guess the 7L is a more important thing than the heads maybe. For instance.. my heads did flow almost 300cfm @ 600 lift with good mid numbers and not that big ports. If going the supercharger way, would I still need bigger heads than 220cc and still be streetable? The idea is to make the most power out of pump gas. Which was why I wanted the 7L option.
Also I do understand your point that if you are going to go into spending that ammount of $ into a block is better to go the 15* head anywys and get even more flow out of them. The best advantage of the bowtie block for me is that it is taller and you can have a better configuration there for the longer stroke and rod/stroke ratio. But, does the bowtie bolt right up to the T56 and accessories from the LT1? is it cheaper to do a converion to a 7L bowtie vs ls6 7L? I like the idea that I can use the stock Engine management from an ls6 as I have dealt with fast systems and they are not as configurable for daily driving as the lsx ones. If I went with the 15* heads could I still use the lt4 intake?
The SBC stuff will bolt up no probs.
The LSx stuff IMO is going to cost you more in the long run.
-Mindgame
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
Originally posted by Mindgame
You are going to need a LOT of head for a 421+ ci SBC. That is, if you want to rev them to 6500 rpm or better. The potential for 700 na HP is there at those revs but even a 240cc 340 cfm head would be a little small. This is where the large sbc heads come into play.
The SBC stuff will bolt up no probs.
The LSx stuff IMO is going to cost you more in the long run.
-Mindgame
You are going to need a LOT of head for a 421+ ci SBC. That is, if you want to rev them to 6500 rpm or better. The potential for 700 na HP is there at those revs but even a 240cc 340 cfm head would be a little small. This is where the large sbc heads come into play.
The SBC stuff will bolt up no probs.
The LSx stuff IMO is going to cost you more in the long run.
-Mindgame
Let me know... I thought that 240CC head was more than enough.. .I mean.. the LSx people are doing it with that much head.. If you say its too small it means that if they could go larger, as maybe the new LSx casting, it means they will be doing easy 650rwhp N/A.
Makes me thing about the 572 CID that did 800hp on the pumpg gas.. hmm...
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,456
From: sarasota, fl
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
'Lander,
You must do alot of LS reading. Most of the "streetable" LS' I've seen are in the 550rwhp range with 240cc heads. Then there are guys who would have you believe that their 600 na rwhp cars are "daily drivers".
The thing about the LS stuff is the price. Are you going to sleeve a block or go with the C5-R block? That's a $6k block by the way and I think GM designed it because of a lack of faith in the stock block at very high hp levels. And before we go there... yes, there are a million guys putting big #s up with the stock block variants. I'm not that far out of the loop.
The nicest thing about a gen 1 is you can build anything from a 400 to 480 ci small block. The tall deck blocks will also give you a decent r/s ratio if you're concerned about that kinda thing. Plus, these 260-280 cc race heads you can pick up all day long, work very well on these big motors in streetable RPMs. The parts are more plentiful and therefore, less expensive.
And are you so sure that MoTec, FAST and Electromotive's top of the line management systems are that much inferior to GM's stuff? Are the C5-R cars running stock engine management? I'd venture to say they aren't.
You'll really have to do some homework to see which way to go but I'm putting my money on the gen1.
-Mindgame
You must do alot of LS reading. Most of the "streetable" LS' I've seen are in the 550rwhp range with 240cc heads. Then there are guys who would have you believe that their 600 na rwhp cars are "daily drivers".
The thing about the LS stuff is the price. Are you going to sleeve a block or go with the C5-R block? That's a $6k block by the way and I think GM designed it because of a lack of faith in the stock block at very high hp levels. And before we go there... yes, there are a million guys putting big #s up with the stock block variants. I'm not that far out of the loop.
The nicest thing about a gen 1 is you can build anything from a 400 to 480 ci small block. The tall deck blocks will also give you a decent r/s ratio if you're concerned about that kinda thing. Plus, these 260-280 cc race heads you can pick up all day long, work very well on these big motors in streetable RPMs. The parts are more plentiful and therefore, less expensive.
And are you so sure that MoTec, FAST and Electromotive's top of the line management systems are that much inferior to GM's stuff? Are the C5-R cars running stock engine management? I'd venture to say they aren't.
You'll really have to do some homework to see which way to go but I'm putting my money on the gen1.
-Mindgame
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
Originally posted by AdioSS
While we're on the subject, who are some companies that offer cylinder sleeves for a SBC?
While we're on the subject, who are some companies that offer cylinder sleeves for a SBC?
http://www.darton-international.com/
If anyone has what you need, they do.
-Mindgame
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,082
From: San Juan PR
Yes im sure that motec, even the tec 3 doesn't come close to the many feautures and availabilities that GM has in its LS engine management system...
I have worked with them and tuned and that I know.. and for what I have seen I prefer the ls1 EMS over any other... The only drawback I find is lack of boost and/or additional controllers by the PCM.
The 240CC head (after porting) are achieved with small cross sectional area... What makes their cars NOT streetable is the aggressiveness of the cam.. I do know and acknowledge that the aftermarket world of the gen 1 is much bigger, but I also have to recognize that the c5R does not use a gen 1 aluminum block...
I understand the cost of the block is not cheap, but nor is it the bowtie block aluminum from gm... Yes one can go other routes... but where can you get a streetable engine with the kind of extreme HP we are achieving with chargers N/A? 572 big block? Like on the Hot Rod magazine they did almost 800HP on pump gas? That engine is 15k easy.. and I know in a c5r proyect you will shell more or less the same thing, but i think its a lot easier to fit and the parts are available than the 572, although there are companies that offer the parts needed for a big block, i rather have a small block in there...
I like the LSx engine.. is a far superior engine in many things.. i like that the engine is fuel efficient (my pops z06 on highway gives 36mpg!!!!!).
I do acknowledge that the 15º gen 1 come in different castings and sizes available and such, but feel its a lot "easier" with an lsx 7L?
Mindgame are you still using the LT1/4 intake on those heads? if you have the intake its a lot easier to fit in any other fuel injections system i believe...
It remains to be seen quite a few things. Many LSx 7L that are streetable make 550-600 not more... but theres always the power adder They are making good power with HR cams and that is something that maintains a lower level of meintenance on a vehicle...
I guess its a matter of opinion or that i feel a bit ackward in changin powerplants inside platforms... Besides ebay, where can you get a bowtie block Aluminum at a reasonable price? that deal of the bowtie al block will run you how much?? I think even a bit mroe than the LS variation.
I have worked with them and tuned and that I know.. and for what I have seen I prefer the ls1 EMS over any other... The only drawback I find is lack of boost and/or additional controllers by the PCM.
The 240CC head (after porting) are achieved with small cross sectional area... What makes their cars NOT streetable is the aggressiveness of the cam.. I do know and acknowledge that the aftermarket world of the gen 1 is much bigger, but I also have to recognize that the c5R does not use a gen 1 aluminum block...
I understand the cost of the block is not cheap, but nor is it the bowtie block aluminum from gm... Yes one can go other routes... but where can you get a streetable engine with the kind of extreme HP we are achieving with chargers N/A? 572 big block? Like on the Hot Rod magazine they did almost 800HP on pump gas? That engine is 15k easy.. and I know in a c5r proyect you will shell more or less the same thing, but i think its a lot easier to fit and the parts are available than the 572, although there are companies that offer the parts needed for a big block, i rather have a small block in there...
I like the LSx engine.. is a far superior engine in many things.. i like that the engine is fuel efficient (my pops z06 on highway gives 36mpg!!!!!).
I do acknowledge that the 15º gen 1 come in different castings and sizes available and such, but feel its a lot "easier" with an lsx 7L?
Mindgame are you still using the LT1/4 intake on those heads? if you have the intake its a lot easier to fit in any other fuel injections system i believe...
It remains to be seen quite a few things. Many LSx 7L that are streetable make 550-600 not more... but theres always the power adder
They are making good power with HR cams and that is something that maintains a lower level of meintenance on a vehicle... I guess its a matter of opinion or that i feel a bit ackward in changin powerplants inside platforms... Besides ebay, where can you get a bowtie block Aluminum at a reasonable price? that deal of the bowtie al block will run you how much?? I think even a bit mroe than the LS variation.
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,371
From: Kilgore TX 75662
Originally posted by The Highlander
I guess its a matter of opinion or that i feel a bit ackward in changin powerplants inside platforms... Besides ebay, where can you get a bowtie block Aluminum at a reasonable price? that deal of the bowtie al block will run you how much?? I think even a bit mroe than the LS variation.
I guess its a matter of opinion or that i feel a bit ackward in changin powerplants inside platforms... Besides ebay, where can you get a bowtie block Aluminum at a reasonable price? that deal of the bowtie al block will run you how much?? I think even a bit mroe than the LS variation.
check out their Motown Lite block
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,371
From: Kilgore TX 75662
yeah, I can't find it on their website either? that's odd. It doesn't look like they update their website very often.
There are magazine articles on their new aluminum Motown Lite block. It can take up to a 4.125 bore and a 4.00 stroke. I think it is Popular Hot Rodding that has the article about it?
There are magazine articles on their new aluminum Motown Lite block. It can take up to a 4.125 bore and a 4.00 stroke. I think it is Popular Hot Rodding that has the article about it?
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,985
From: In a house by the bay
C5-R block ~$6200
Bowtie aluminum ~$4200
Dart aluminum ~$3800
Motown Lite ~$3500
So there's a bit of price savings there.
If you don't just have to have aluminum, you can get the Rocket, SB2, Dart Iron Eagle or Motown iron blocks for less than $2200.
So the next big expense is the heads. I can buy the Rocket and a set of CNC'ed 18, 15º, SB2.2 heads with rocker shaft setup and I've got a killer block and heads for the price of your C5-R block alone. Or I can save money in buying a set of new castings and having them ported to the application.
More Performance sells one of these C5-R motors for $25 big ones.
http://www.moreperformanceinc.com/427_ls6_race.htm
When you get past the block, it comes down to cylinder heads. With the LS engine you get any choice of LS cylinder head.... factory or AFR.
With the gen1 I have the choice of Brodix, GM race heads, Pontiac, AFR, Dart, Edelbrock, you name it. Many of which have heads that are IMO better suited to building a big inch small block.
As for adding force induction to the mix... I don't even want to go there but if you look at the really fast guys (Reiger, etc) they're doing it on TT setups and GM race heads. Besides, anyone with $$ can go fast with force induction in a street setup....
Yes, I'm using the LT4 intake... although highly modified and using spacers to correct port alignment.
Search for "Motown Lite" on Google... should find it right off the bat.
nevermind,
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...88&prmenbr=361
and more.....
http://www.theengineshop.com/bmhrpcatvol33/pgs18_25.pdf
-Mindgame
Bowtie aluminum ~$4200
Dart aluminum ~$3800
Motown Lite ~$3500
So there's a bit of price savings there.
If you don't just have to have aluminum, you can get the Rocket, SB2, Dart Iron Eagle or Motown iron blocks for less than $2200.
So the next big expense is the heads. I can buy the Rocket and a set of CNC'ed 18, 15º, SB2.2 heads with rocker shaft setup and I've got a killer block and heads for the price of your C5-R block alone. Or I can save money in buying a set of new castings and having them ported to the application.
More Performance sells one of these C5-R motors for $25 big ones.
http://www.moreperformanceinc.com/427_ls6_race.htm
When you get past the block, it comes down to cylinder heads. With the LS engine you get any choice of LS cylinder head.... factory or AFR.
With the gen1 I have the choice of Brodix, GM race heads, Pontiac, AFR, Dart, Edelbrock, you name it. Many of which have heads that are IMO better suited to building a big inch small block.
As for adding force induction to the mix... I don't even want to go there but if you look at the really fast guys (Reiger, etc) they're doing it on TT setups and GM race heads. Besides, anyone with $$ can go fast with force induction in a street setup....
Yes, I'm using the LT4 intake... although highly modified and using spacers to correct port alignment.
Search for "Motown Lite" on Google... should find it right off the bat.
nevermind,
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...88&prmenbr=361
and more.....
http://www.theengineshop.com/bmhrpcatvol33/pgs18_25.pdf
-Mindgame
Last edited by Mindgame; May 15, 2004 at 10:56 PM.
