I'm assuming you're NOT talking about a BBC 396. With better head choices for a BBC, the BBC 396 would be far better than a SBC 383.

Unless you're running huge amounts of power adders, you'll probably never notice a difference with rod ratios or side loads. There have been many high HP short rod 383's long before long rod engines became the rage.

 

Stephen, a 396BBC is a waste an the only good heads to get it down the track quickly aren't cheap. You need some killer small oval port heads to do that.

Bret

 

I dont believe I misqouted anyone, I was told by Dennis those EXACT words, If you cant stand behind what you say , dont say it. And Bret as far as your comment goes I don't remember it being a 3 way call, he said what he said plain and simple. And furthermore you said nothing of the sort when I talked to you about the combination I am putting together...you leaned toward the side of it could be done...And after looking around it HAS been done. A Drag Radial is not a limiting factor IMO, especially not one 11.25 inches wide, with a FULL suspension setup..this car is NOT a half baked half assed chassis, it was done right! Cars are tearing bumpers off and running in the 7's on a 325/50 radial.Dragging someones name through the mud would constitute not being truthfull about the conversation. Stating correctly what was said..is well.... the truth.

To review:

Bret and a few others HAVE made 630 fwhp on a 23*head on pumpgas, that puts 500 to the tire through a 4L60E. Bret you dont feel that TFS head engine will run 10's in my car with the suspension and tires it has?

A local car that weighs 3700 lbs runs 6.80's in the 1/8 mile on the 325/50 tire with a 1.47 60ft FULLY DRESSED steetcar. a 97 Z28 that puts 505 to the ground on motor.It does not defy the laws of physics, it ACTUALLY does it, I have seen it.

I am not saying I am gonna do it, but I am damn sure gonna try, I am not trying to be an ***..but if ya tell me something be prepared to stand by it.Period.

Just because YOU havent done it, doesn't mean it can't be done. Maybe I am pissing up a rope.But dont plain *** shut it down over the phone, Bret was MUCH more easy to listen to..he told me what I was up against(which I already knew pretty much) and told me what I neded to do to get close...Dennis flat *** told me I was trying to put a man on the moon...not good business IMO..but hey what do I know. I do know I wont be doing business with Dennis.


David

 

"Dennis flat *** told me I was trying to put a man on the moon...not good business IMO..but hey what do I know. I do know I wont be doing business with Dennis."

That I think was his point.... he didn't want to promise you anything that he doesn't KNOW HE can do with your setup. Underpromise and OVERdeliver is actually a VERY GOOD way to do bussiness. He's not trying to take your money and this is your response to that?

I have talked to Dennis today BTW about it and I understand where he is coming from, so it might not be a 3 way call but it IS a SMALL WORLD.

Two things here...

1. I COULD do it if I did everything in front of me, Long Block style. Lot's of details in there that are important.
2. You and I have talked, and my opinion is you have your mind made up how and what you want to do. So it leaves me with, why are you asking anyone else HOW do it, or for help?

Not to get on your case David, but I personally and professionally do NOT like what I see in this post, I think what you did is uncalled for. If a guy tells you, that you are trying to put a man on the moon and that makes decided that you are not going to do bussiness with him, then DON'T COME ON HERE AND BAD MOUTH HIM. He is actually being HONEST and now this is a CRIME?

Do I think that 396 I just did would run that number, most likey yes. That motor intake to pan is $14,500 to replicate. Could it be tweaked to work better for a drag car, YES. Does that mean it will run 10.90's nope.

Period.

Bret

 

I to am being honest, is THAT a crime?

I do have a little bit of knowledge, and coming on here asking opinions is also not a crime, that is what this board is for...I bad mouthed no one, I simply stated what he said....if you are him cannot deal with what he said...and furthermore the WAY he said it(which you did not hear) Maybe it's just the way he is....dunno...but it shure came off condescending to me. I aint some kid with 2 grand trying to run 10.90's on motor, I have the money to do it right, I am just trying to figure out who to give it to is THAT a crime?

AGain I badmouthed no one, repeating what someone said is just that. I altered what he said in noway shape or form..He did not say the "words" I am trying to put someone on the moon, but his tone and telling me I couldnt do it sure did imply that, I said that in my head....everything else he DID say and furthermore in a condescending matter.

I deal in the service end of a 18 wheeler repair shop, I deal with people everyday..that is not the way to treat a potential customer that has the means to make a damn good go at his goal, that will not skimp.....buy what is needed.....the reason for this post was to see if I NEEDED a 396 to make my goal....as far as I can see it can be done with a 383..which is the answer I needed.Nothing agianst you Bret, you are the kinda guy guys like me need to talk to...but let Dennis speak up If he feels the need.


David

 

Dennis is well know to be one of the best in the business. I think he was just trying to paint a realistic picture of the situation. FYI I have over $12K in my engine, and I am realistic about whether or not it will run 10.9 on motor.

 

David,
If you remember our conversation, My concern was not with making the power you needed. My concern was making the power within the specifications that you gave me.

You stated the following
1. You are keeping all accessories, you want to be able to use AC while cruising
2. You want a basically maintenance free valvetrain
3. It regularly sees over 100 degrees where you live.
4. you want to do it with off the shelf 23 degree castings, that do not have spread port exhaust.
5. use a 4l60 and 9" on a drag radial.

Here is the problem as easily as I can explain.
1. Your weight is is some of the problem, but not all. You are going to be heavily front biased, this traditionally is a problem with short instance center cars.
2. we both agreed that we had a total lobe are of around .630 to work with, this keeps our effective lift at around .545
3. If you want to drive this thing in any heat with the AC blasting, with the DCR required to make the power you are looking for, you will need a head with correctly designed dual quench pads, and a fairly thick core.
4. Most of the 23 degree head designs that move enough air to do what you want, that we can get to work with a 6600 rpm limit, have spread-port exhaust.

you also noted that your buddies car has a short time of 1.30, you are shooting for a high 1.40 short. Like I had said, just the additional .2 in short time will equal atleast .4 in 1320 feet. His 10.60 would be a 11.00 in your car. he also has much less front bias.

I'am not judging your talent either in assembling the motor, but a good bit of work goes into it to make every last ounce. Like I had told you, I am figuring 20 hp high for what you need.

If you can find a set of the older darts, I think that is your best bet at meeting your goals.

the right head, a little more valvetrain, or a little more RPM, and this gets pretty easy. Currently though, if someone tells you this project is easy, I would question there qualifications.

Dennis

 

No comments about the bickering per se. But I have a buddy in the consumer end of the performance business (as opposed to professional racers). It's interesting to see how some of his customers react to plain talk. I wonder if that's what went on here? It's dishonest to promise a specific result UNLESS the builder has built EXACTLY the same combo. Otherwise, all he can do is say something to the effect of "I think it will make xxx hp (and state the basis for the opinion)...but in the end, it makes what it makes." Some people like the truth a bit sugar coated, there are some vendors who are good at percieving this and giving them what they want. Other people have a blunter, more straightforward style. In my job, same deal. Good thing I didn't go into psychiatry! I guess that tells you which type I am. Takes all kinds.

Rich

 

I hear that Rich, I'm about as blunt as they come. It's amazing i'm still single.

Bret said it right in a previous post, something my grandfather always used to say, "Underpromise and Overdeliver." Not trying to call you old or anything Bret.

But there is no harm in someone turning down a job if they can't promise to achieve your goal.

Just my $.02....if that,

Jeremy

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said I wanted to run the a/c ALL the time I know the DCR and SCR required to make this power it is apt to run hot, I have enough sense if I am sitting in traffic and them temp creeps up to turn it off



I never said I wanted a "Maintenance free" valvetrain, I told you I was prepared to buy ALL the parts necessary to make a MORE maintenance friendly valvetrain, including tool room springs ,Morel lifters, shaft rockers, titanium retainers..and whatever else was needed.I knw a solid roller is NOT maintenance free, and for sure the type needed to achieve what I am going for.


Heat index is a 100 june through sept, ambient is mid 90's, as I told you I have a the biggest Griffin radiator and Meziere pump that you can buy AND Evans cooling if needed.

Yes "off the shelf" 23* castings, Pro action 220 can flow 320 CFM, I did not back down when you told me a $3300 set of All Pro's is what would do it, then you said it MIGHT get it done.


Use a 9 inch is the ONLY way to go, no worries, and guys are running in the bottom 10's with a 4L60e, personally I dont see the handicap there.


Yes weight is a handicap, but if you get the car to hook, and run a high 1.40 60ft the biggest part of the battle is over, My buddy that ran a 6.80 in the 1/8 mile with a 3700 lb Camaro with a 325/50 radial ran a 1.47 60 ft time, made 505 to the ground. On motor. The car is not maximized as of yet, that was his first time out.

You have the 1.30 60 ft confused with the OTHER car I told you about that ALSO defied the laws of physics as you say, 3350 lb Z28, 383, stock castings, 12to1 race fuel, Holley Stealth ram, Turbo 350 with a brake, ran 10.50s , had alot left in it, was never dyno tuned, a wheel stand wrecked it. ANd how does the two cars listed above have LESS front weight bias than I do, they are the exact same car?


I told you on the phone I KNEW it was not easy on pumpgas, 23* head@3650lbs, If it was, there would be more cars like it. That is exaclty WHY I want to do it.


I do not have the knowledge that you or Bret have, but I do have a little, I do think it can be done, but you told me I need 550 to 575 RWHP to run the 10.90....you may be right....I don't know..I will explore the possibility. Moreover you told me it was impossible with an off the shelf 23* head, hard maybe not impossible.


David

 

Neither did he, he just said while cruising.

And I think one of the major problems with keep all accessories is they just eat up power, even if you don't use them.

 

David,
It is pretty apparent that you really mis-understood everything that I said during our conversation.

I feel in your weight situation, in order for you to run 10.70's in 700' air, I would want you to have 550 RWHP. That does not mean that you need it, Like I said, you need to build some buffer into the equation.

I never said the all-pro's might work...they certainly will work...except they are spread port exhaust...remember? I also indicated if you were going that far, financially you would be further ahead to look at a different casting, if you have to re-flange your headers.

I also stated that by excluding the short time, you are defiing the laws of physics. Thank you again for mis-quoting me.

If you find a set of pro-actions that flow 320 @ .550 out of the box, I will buy every set you have. I have never seen one of there 23 degree heads go 320 out of the box ever!

If I hurt your feelings by stating all of these facts, I certainly appoligize, I was greatly mis-understood. I am here to solve problems, in order to fix something, you must know what is wrong, before you can fix it.

If you would like to go over this again, feel free to give me a call. Seems like we had some mis-communication.

BTW, on your original post question....forget about the rod ratio, The cubes will be much appreciated as they will give you atleast an additional 250 RPMS...remember...you are Rev limited!


Thanks
Dennis

 

David

The very first thing you gotta know is how much horsepower it takes to get the job done. Do you have a Moroso power/speed calculator?

Once you know that the rest becomes an economic justification. If all you need is 500 HP you can do that with a 358. 500/358=1.3966 HP per cu. in. Thats easy. We can make 450with a 302 on pump gas and drive it every day thats 450/302=1.49 HP per cu in. so 1.49X358=533.42

I have an engine builder in Oklohoma (Dick Sweat) he builds a 358 W/Bowtie-Vortech Iron heads (unported), flat top pistons, steel rotating assm, solid roller cam, 6" rods, wet sump, and this puppy maks 540 but not on pump gas. It just sounds easy when you have done it hundreds of times like he does. Add ported heads and a ported manifold and then where are you?

Rethink your strategy

Denny Schmidt

 

"Moreover you told me it was impossible with an off the shelf 23* head, hard maybe not impossible."

No I'm gonna say that's impossible.

Bret

 

Why not go with an 18 degree head? I know the 23 degree thing was part of the specified paramaters, but is it that much more work to make the 18 degree setup work in a 4th gen fbody?

Steve