pineapplesink6

RickRock’s 383



First off I would like to say thanks to all the people who have put up with me through the last several years. There has been a few guys on the forum, that have answered my question and gave me suggestions as well. You guys know who you are.

The plan was to build the motor last year, but since I found the women of my dreams, that hard earned money went into buying her a very nice ring. And like most of you guys know that wasn’t cheap. So that kind of brought me back to square one with my bank account in regards to the motor fund.

Fast forward to 2007. This is the year that I can finally build a motor. The idea of a 350/396/406/421 tossed around in my mind. But at the end of the day, the 383 is probably one of the most cost feasible way to go.

So there is a bit of history for you guys. As I mentioned I have had the opportunity to call a few of you guys, and learned alot from your trial and tribulations. In regards to this project I am going to have “Mos 90” Steve M. take me under his wing. He is very knowledgeable and has put together a few combinations of his own. His latest is a solid roller 396 that is making just shy of 500rwhp.

I am hoping this thread doesn’t get off topic too much. I have put some thought into this thread, and I hope it doesn’t get sidetracked, because the questions I am about to ask are not only important to me, but will be helpful for a lot of guys. I am sure of that! There are a lot of guys that are thinking of building a mild street motor, and a lot of those guys want to build 383’s.

Enough with the “song and dance”. My “plan” is to have a car that has good street manners, and obviously good driveability. One of my main concerns is that my 88 has an old archaic prom, therefore I am somewhat limited in decided things such as a camshaft. Reason on the Miniram is because I want more of a highway screamer then a low end torque intake.



THE BUILD


A little background for the readers. The car is an 1988 Z-51, 4+3 coupe. It currently has 75000 miles on it, and run in the mid-high 13’s @100-102 depending on track conditions. The car has the stock 3.07’s with the 4+3 tranny. I am hoping with the extra torque of the 383, the 3.07’s wont be a major issue. The car has always been a good runner, but I am extremely bored of the power that it makes. I also want to add that I plan on keeping this car forever. There are plans down the road for another car, but that’s another story. I do visit the track once or twice a year, but this car isn’t going to be built for the 1320. This is going to be a street car. It will see many miles on the highway, and many trips to the cottage hopefully. My performance goals would be to trap somewhere in the 117-119mph area and dyno somewhere in the 390rwhp/390rwtq range. My budget figure I have planned is somewhere in the $6000 range. The car will look stock from the outside with the exception of my polished rims that you guys like.

Mods I have planned so far:

Intake-TPIS MR II. Reason on the Miniram is because I want more of a highway screamer then a low end torque intake. Time for a change.


Heads-AFR 195CC “Eliminators” http://www.adperformance.com/index.p...roducts_id=208

Cam- TPIS ZZ409, 226/226 .520/.520, 112 LSA. I can also get this cam used for a good price with 1000 miles on it.

Shortblock- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eagle... agenameZWD1V CR will be around 11.0 with those AFR's that are 65CC. Block will be internally balanced.

Exhaust- Full 2.75 inch piping, Borla. With 2 high flow cats. Hooker 1 3/4 headers.

Injectors- http://www.racetronix.com/621020.html

These are the mods I am thinking about, but its not set in stone. I have a few questions for your guys, and if you guys have any for me then that is great! I am hoping this thread can stay on topic as you have probably noticed it took a bit of time to type.


1)Will I need a Gen 7 or Fast Unit to tune the car? Or will the stock computer work? I thought about getting a tune from TJWONG or ALVIN, and then getting it dyno tuned if it was off.
2)Will I see my power goals with that cam? Remember passing the sniffer is a goal as well.
3)Will I still have some bottom end torque with the 3.07’s? 1st gear is 2.88-1. ZF6 1st gear is 2.68-1.
4)What do you think of the combo? Do you think I am way off in anything? Have you seen any proven combo’s that you might suggest?

Thanks guys!! I am serious about this motor. I dont want this thread to turn into a MR vs SR war, or anything to that extent. Let's keep to the subject at hand.


Rick.

Damon

I don't know the weight of your Vette but that MPH sounds kinda high for that cam. I think you're going to need to get quite a bit more aggressive than that. And that's a fairly small cam for 11:1, which makes me think you might have a detonation monster on your hands.

I have used the Miniram on a mild 400 a few years back. With 9.8:1 compression, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads (no longer available), shorties and good exhaust, 700R4 trans with stock converter, 3.27 rear gears, stock computer with off-the-shelf TPIS chip and a little 210/210 flat tappet cam it trapped 110 and change in a pig-heavy 87 GTA. Bottom end torque was still way too much to hook up on street tires. I was stunned how much bottom end torque it made even with the short Miniram runners. We swapped in a larger Comp 270 Magnum flat tappet cam (224/224) and it lost a little of the rediculous bottom end torque and stacked it all right back on the top end. We never had it back to the track like that but I think it would have trapped 112-113 easy after the cam swap. Still a LONG way from your goal, though.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have saved money on the pricy Miniram and bought a converted LT1 intake from John Millican (thirdgen.org). Then I would have plowed the savings back into a better valvetrain, exhaust, converter and maybe gears.

I don't think you've got a bad plan, actually, if you look at it the right way. I'd stick with that cam or something similar, use a converted LT1 intake, drop the compression closer to 10:1 and have a real nice drivable pump gas combo with the rest of the drivetrain you already have. I could see that setup trapping maybe 115-ish, especially with your manual trans and ability to tune the computer, but still being a pussycat around town.

If you want to trap 120+ I think you're going to have to get more aggressive with the combo (mainly cam and valvetrain, porting the LT1 intake or stepping up to that Miniram) and then you start the downward spiral of "chasing the weakest link" with the rest of your drivetrain, not to mention it won't be as streetable.

The difference between trapping 102 and trapping 115 feels like you strapped a rocket on the back end of your car. My brother's GTA walked right away from a stock ZR1 Vette from a 70MPH highway roll. By 130 it was just silly how many lengths we were stacking on him. It was one of the most unexpectedly fast but truly daily-drivable combos I ever screwed together.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Miniram. I just think it's kinda pricey for what it is. I'll also say that, in my humble opinion, it probably will work best with a cam in the 230-240* duration range. It likes to breathe up top. But that also means all the bad stuff that comes along with a cam that big.

ws6transam

My Minirammed 385 traps 114 MPH on a set of competition ported AFR195's, but that was before I installed Hooker headers. I was using a custom Comp Cams 230/236 112 LSA hydraulic roller cam, and it idles just fine with an Accel Gen 6 ECM. I now have a FAST XFI ECM in there, but it's not totally tuned. The engine dynoed at 396 RWHP and 383 ft.lb of torque on the Livernois dyno. I also get 19 miles per gallon on the highway with 3.73 gears.

So, based on what I've experienced, I would recommend you step up another six to ten degrees (at least) on your cam duration. DONT cheap out on the cam even if it seems like a deal, UNLESS it is exactly what you would have purchased in the first place. Also consider the purchase of an aftermarket ECM, either FAST, Accel DFI, or perhaps even the low-buck but high performance Megasquirt.

It's a thrill and a rush. To get from 113 MPH to 120 MPH is not an easy task: There's a pretty large horsepower difference in getting there. Probably 75 to 100 HP.

RednGold86Z

A Gen7 or whatever will eat up your budget VERY quickly. A '730 or '727 speed density ECU conversion would be a good option, and will be cheap and easy to tune with something from moates, like an autoprom or ostrich. You'd be able to keep knock control, idle control, closed loop, fan control, etc etc... and replacements are cheap. Tuning it is easy too, since there's stock baseline calibrations available for free. You could even keep the stock '165 ECU, just program your chip. Many people have taken the MAF's into the 11's, but at high RPM WOT, it's not able to measure the real flow anymore, so you have to calibrate the prom to just make it give you the fuel you need. The restriction of the MAF will drop a few hp too, don't know how much though, and it depends on the airflow through it.

Your miniram won't be emissions legal, without EGR, but as long as it's only a sniffer and off the rollers, it'll be no problem, if you keep your cats (might want a split pattern since you'll be pushing through them), and tune it right.

All of your parts are high rpm material. A good clutch should also be on your list.

kandied91z

i ran that cam with similar spec heads and a miniram III... not the best investment. i would never purchase anything from tpis again as they are rather hyped up. regardless if you can get the parts used for a good deal then go for it as it can make some decent power. just not worth the asking price. for the price of the miniram, cam and heads alone you could drop a stout factory lsx drivetrain in the car and have almost what your looking for with everything you asked with great gas mileage... slightly more, add a blower and your well over your range.

good luck.

AutoRoc

Eric Niefert's 68 camaro 383 68 camaro that Won the SBC all motor class at Hot Rod drag week 2005..

383 cubes
XR286R hyd roller (Comp cams)
195cc Trick Flow Heads (205cc after portwork)
Pump gas
TH350 trans, 3.73, 28" Radials
Carb/single plane intake

11.15 @ 120mph

He drove this car everywhere, beat on it endlessly, and I've watched it idle in the staging lanes and in traffic for a long time, carbed also! EFI would make it even better. You could use that exact same combo with roughly 11:1 compression.

I would do a 383, AFR 210's, A similar hyd. roller cam from Jay Allen at Camshaft Innovations, 11.5:1, with a Big Stuff 3 EFI. 3.07 gears won't be best because this combo will want to rev hard. Powerband will be stout in the 4500-7000 range. It will have more than enough TQ on the bottom end but unless you're looking for extreme gas mileage, 3.73's or 4.10's would be better with that 6 speed.

I'd also do a converted LT1 intake with port matching, or maybe even a converted LTx intake from Steve Quinn if he's still selling those. Goodluck, let us know how it comes along.

AutoRoc

1. I'd do aftermaket EFI, Big Stuff 3 and it will not be cheap. It's really hard to recall anyone making big power with a stock efi setup, even with repeated attemps.

2. No way that ZZ409 will give the engine what it needs to make good useable power. I'd go with a REAL custom cam, get a few quotes. Cam master Jay, Cam Motion, Lazer. Sniffer? are you serious?

3. 3.07 and 26" tires will be lame with a higher reving combo. Something in the 3.70-4.10 range will not only get you moving quicker, it will keep the engine in it's newfound powerband much better. MT Drag Radials around 275/40/17 would be going on along with the gearswap. 1-2 will be useless on a street tire, even a good one.

4. I forgot about AFR's new Eliminator design, hopefully it's really really good. A 195 Eliminator should feed a 383 just fine. More cam, long tubes, good tune and 400+ at the wheels should be really "easy". No reason it shouldn't go 120+ at the track. It should cost well over 6K.

RednGold86Z

Well no offense, but maybe you're not too familiar with EFI stuff then. There's nothing special about the aftermarket stuff. They still fire the coil and injectors, just like a stock ECU. An MSD might help at the very high RPMs, though. The DIY PROM board at thirdgen.org has tons of info on how to do it all yourself. You'll be doing it all yourself with an aftermarket anyway. Myself and others are pretty familiar with the factory ECUs on that board. The software to tune it is free or cheap. The hardware to program or emulate is 1/5th the price or less of an aftermarket setup.

Pineapplesink6, you also will need a wideband setup, such as from Innovate Motorsports. Don't even bother trying to tune any EFI without it, especially for a beginner. Factor in about $350 for that.

AutoRoc

LM-1 w/ RPM kit is definately icing on the cake.

Red, I've been over there time and time again, could you post up some successful 400+RWHP combos that use a factory ecm? PM them to me if you find some, I've been looking a long time. If ws6transam(Dan) goes aftermarket and reccomends it....I'm choosing aftermarket. Same with Kandied91z.

89TramsAmGTA

I agree with the above posts on the cam. Those excellent AFR heads are good to .600" lift. Take advantage of them. Remember "lift is your friend" when it comes to horsepower. Get a cam that comes close to that lift with 1.6 rockers. Maybe a custom cam is in order.

kandied91z

the 730 ecm really seems to start to fall short when you get above 400 true rwhp indeed. it's unfortunate but even the original guys at gm that program the stuff have issues with it as that's where i went on my last dying resort before switching over to an lsx.

the fact that emmissions is even an issue just makes me question some of the pieces. having been there with almost the exact combo that was originally listed in this thread all i can say from personal experience is save your money. i'm not the first or the last one that has ever had issues with that combination and while it can work it just doesn't work like it should.

regardless if your pumped to try it at least get your parts used as full price and i'd hate to say i told you so when a year from now your wanting to change parts. it was a very expensive mistake for me that i will never make again.

good luck with it all... building an engine should be fun, leave tpis out of it and you'll have a much better chance.

pineapplesink6

what cam do you suggest then? i have talked to a few guys who burn chips that have lots of experience, and they mentioned they can get the combo very close, and then i would have to fine tune it on a dyno.

pineapplesink6

I hear what your saying but my car is alot lighter then a GTA. I am going to drop the CR to around 10.3-10.5 at the highest. I was wrong thinking 11.0 was good.

Randy92Z

Here is one running on the 730 ECM, http://home.comcast.net/~pontiacgta/.../Newengine.htm

I myself also planning on running almost this exact same combo. He put down 445 rwhp.

pineapplesink6, Im currently running a Miniram'ed 383 running on pocket ported TF 23* heads and a ZZ409 cam w/1.6 rockers. The car runs great on the street, no problems as of yet. But this combo left me wanting more. Im planning on upgrading to AFR's 210 Eliminators, and TPIS ZZX cam running the same 1.6 rockers and a hydra rev. I plan on making trips to the strip and seeing what she will do. I also like to road race the car once or twice a year. If you have any other questions feel free to ask or pm me.

pineapplesink6

Randy. You can call me Rick. I have no idea why I choose that stupid user name I have. What power are you making to the ground? Also what flow #'s are those heads making?

Is there anyway I can call you? If so PM me with your phone number thanks. Hope to hear from you soon, As I want to order the AFR's today, but I am not sure if I should go with 75cc or 65cc.

Keep in mind the new 195CC AFR's arent far off those Brodix Track 1's. I am putting a mini group purchase together if anyone is interested pm me.