View Poll Results: What engine would you rather see?
7.0---427!
148
52.11%
6.2 S/C
136
47.89%
Voters: 284. You may not vote on this poll
7.0 or 6.2 S/C
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 694
From: Brighton, IL
My main thing is if Im going to shell out the dollars for the car, I want the better foundation. If GM decides to put a 427 with the LS7 style heads (which are the best heads GM has ever built- 330CFM factory) its the way to go. What car can run with the new Z06 factory?
GM has always made their muscle cars N/A (F-Body, Vette), other than the couple turbo versions of the trans am, which were not that impressive.
S/C engines do not make that much torque. Of all types of power adders, they make the least amount. Nitrous and turbo make the most. I know of several Cobra owners that dont put down near the amount of torque that they should.(ex 723hp and 485 lb ft) If the new camaro follows suit of the older models, the car will be in the 35-3600 lb range. A heavy car moves easier with more torque. Bigger motor=more TQ. I would hope to keep a heavy car light as possible. I also want something that I can hop in, beat and bang on it whenever I please, and be able to put the miles on it. A blower motor wont have that longevity. The Grand National is an example of a FI motor that once people started putting moderate to hard miles on, failed.
Pricing of a S/C model will be a lot more than a larger CI N/A model. Look at the '03 cobra and mustang GT. The "premium" GT priced at 25500, where the Cobra rang in at 35085. Thats damn near 10 grand more just for a blower. Think of all the R&D that Ford had to do to make the S/C work. The extra weight of the blower. (Ford claims Cobra at 3665 lbs, but my buddies '03 weighs a little more than 3700 without him in it). GM already has something that works, and does so in convincing fashion. Its that much less money for something that is already in production.
Far as adding a pulley...Ill be willing to wager that if one would take the 427 (as discussed above LS7 style) and add a nitrous kit there wouldnt be a comparison.
6.2=smaller motor, less torque, no where near the cylinder head.
7.0=all the good stuff. A lot more potential.
The new camaro is styled after the classic muscle that got it started. The muscle car has always been about muscle. I want a body builder under the hood, not a teenager wearing a weight suit.
GM has always made their muscle cars N/A (F-Body, Vette), other than the couple turbo versions of the trans am, which were not that impressive.
S/C engines do not make that much torque. Of all types of power adders, they make the least amount. Nitrous and turbo make the most. I know of several Cobra owners that dont put down near the amount of torque that they should.(ex 723hp and 485 lb ft) If the new camaro follows suit of the older models, the car will be in the 35-3600 lb range. A heavy car moves easier with more torque. Bigger motor=more TQ. I would hope to keep a heavy car light as possible. I also want something that I can hop in, beat and bang on it whenever I please, and be able to put the miles on it. A blower motor wont have that longevity. The Grand National is an example of a FI motor that once people started putting moderate to hard miles on, failed.
Pricing of a S/C model will be a lot more than a larger CI N/A model. Look at the '03 cobra and mustang GT. The "premium" GT priced at 25500, where the Cobra rang in at 35085. Thats damn near 10 grand more just for a blower. Think of all the R&D that Ford had to do to make the S/C work. The extra weight of the blower. (Ford claims Cobra at 3665 lbs, but my buddies '03 weighs a little more than 3700 without him in it). GM already has something that works, and does so in convincing fashion. Its that much less money for something that is already in production.
Far as adding a pulley...Ill be willing to wager that if one would take the 427 (as discussed above LS7 style) and add a nitrous kit there wouldnt be a comparison.
6.2=smaller motor, less torque, no where near the cylinder head.
7.0=all the good stuff. A lot more potential.
The new camaro is styled after the classic muscle that got it started. The muscle car has always been about muscle. I want a body builder under the hood, not a teenager wearing a weight suit.
First off, of my circle of "gearhead" friends I am one of maybe 3 who is into F-bodies. The rest are all 03/04 Cobra owners. None of these cars has that big of a difference between hp and torque. The majority of them dyno somewhere around 530 hp/ 510 torque to the wheels. There a couple with either KB or Whipple blowers that dyno 630hp/ 630 tq at the wheels. The largest gap any of my friends have or had was my buddy with an F1-A Procharger. He put down 680 hp/ 590 tq. So I don't quite think that you can say that superchargers don't produce torque.
Second, I don't believe that the GN has failed. I had an uncle who ran mid 11's with his. He went on to put over 100k miles on that car. I still see many GN's and TR's at the track.
Third, most of my friends Cobras weighed somewhere in the 3500-3600 lbs range without them in it but it wasn't just because of the blower. I've participated in many blower swaps and the blower, aftercooler, pump, associated hardware, hoses, etc. at the most weighed 60 lbs. You got to remember that they also added the IRS, bigger brakes, larger sway bars, etc.
Finally, I would say that a nitrous equipped 427 would hang with a S/C 6.2. But lets look at the cost and longetivity of these two motors. You could get a pulley and a tune and have it installed in 30 minutes for a total cost of $500. Or you could buy a nitrous kit which is roughly $600 for a economical base kit. Then you would need to add all the safety features (purge, FPSS, etc.) for another $350. Then its going to take at least a couple of hours to install and in the end is only going to make as much power as the pulley and a tune. Not to mention the fact you will have to refill your bottle every now and then at $45 a pop. Not very economical. Also the cylinder pressures of a nitrous motor is just as bad as a FI motor. So there is no increased longetivity using one over the other.
On a side note I was wondering why the 6.2 isn't going to get great flowing heads? Why does the 7.0 have more potential? If you are going to go FI (whether it is nitrous/blower/turbo) then the sky's the limit right? It doesn't matter what size engine you have you just keep "turning the **** up".
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 694
From: Brighton, IL
If they didn't it would be one of the biggest blunders that this company has ever made. Since there is an FI motor in the works for the Vette I guess we'll find out.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,049
From: Confederate States of America
Why does everyone mention nitrous on the 427, isn't nitrous a temporary boost? A pulley doesn't have to be refilled for $50 or however much it costs and when Johnny Law pulls you over and sees a shiny nitrous bottle your getting a ticket, he can't see my pulley. As for torque the supercharged motor would make more torque over the entire rpm than a NA 427 would. Comparing a 3.8 S/C motor which was never intended to be in anything other than midsize cars to a S/C motor built specifically for all out performance is a bit of a stretch. I would love to have a turbo 6.2 but with emissions and production costs I don't think it's gonna happen. It would be nice if they could make a 427 Z28 and a S/C 6.2 SS, then we could all be happy.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,647
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Won't be the first time.
LT1: Opti crap and weak rear end
LS1: Piston slap and weak rear end
LS3: Weak bottom end or rear end?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,049
From: Confederate States of America
I'll give you the Opti-Spark and weak rear ends but as for piston slap I think that was made out to be something it wasn't, everyone bitched about it but they were still laying down low 13 second stock passes. LS1 was a fantastic engine which still demands respect( how many other cars can boast a big V8 and almost 30 mpg). Any massed produced part is prone to having issues. The 427 isn't gonna be around much longer anyway to worry about. I'm more worried about the IRS than the engine!
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 694
From: Brighton, IL
Gotta agree with the both of you on this one. What kind of internals did the Sostice GXP or Cobalt get? Were they forged or hyperjunk? I think those two motors will give us an insight to what will go in the S/C 6.2. Also has the CTS-V/GTO crowd worked the kinks out of the IRS? I know there are aftermarket parts for the GM IRS but I don't know how well they work.
I think I would be more apt to settle for a weak rear than an internally weak engine. I'd rather not settle at all but I'm kinda used to buying rearend upgrades. lol. It's also alot easier to replace a halfshaft than it is to replace a melted piston.
I think I would be more apt to settle for a weak rear than an internally weak engine. I'd rather not settle at all but I'm kinda used to buying rearend upgrades. lol. It's also alot easier to replace a halfshaft than it is to replace a melted piston.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 185
From: LaGrange KY USA
Man, I don't know where to begin with this.
First off, of my circle of "gearhead" friends I am one of maybe 3 who is into F-bodies. The rest are all 03/04 Cobra owners. None of these cars has that big of a difference between hp and torque. The majority of them dyno somewhere around 530 hp/ 510 torque to the wheels. There a couple with either KB or Whipple blowers that dyno 630hp/ 630 tq at the wheels. The largest gap any of my friends have or had was my buddy with an F1-A Procharger. He put down 680 hp/ 590 tq. So I don't quite think that you can say that superchargers don't produce torque.
Second, I don't believe that the GN has failed. I had an uncle who ran mid 11's with his. He went on to put over 100k miles on that car. I still see many GN's and TR's at the track.
Third, most of my friends Cobras weighed somewhere in the 3500-3600 lbs range without them in it but it wasn't just because of the blower. I've participated in many blower swaps and the blower, aftercooler, pump, associated hardware, hoses, etc. at the most weighed 60 lbs. You got to remember that they also added the IRS, bigger brakes, larger sway bars, etc.
Finally, I would say that a nitrous equipped 427 would hang with a S/C 6.2. But lets look at the cost and longetivity of these two motors. You could get a pulley and a tune and have it installed in 30 minutes for a total cost of $500. Or you could buy a nitrous kit which is roughly $600 for a economical base kit. Then you would need to add all the safety features (purge, FPSS, etc.) for another $350. Then its going to take at least a couple of hours to install and in the end is only going to make as much power as the pulley and a tune. Not to mention the fact you will have to refill your bottle every now and then at $45 a pop. Not very economical. Also the cylinder pressures of a nitrous motor is just as bad as a FI motor. So there is no increased longetivity using one over the other.
On a side note I was wondering why the 6.2 isn't going to get great flowing heads? Why does the 7.0 have more potential? If you are going to go FI (whether it is nitrous/blower/turbo) then the sky's the limit right? It doesn't matter what size engine you have you just keep "turning the **** up".
First off, of my circle of "gearhead" friends I am one of maybe 3 who is into F-bodies. The rest are all 03/04 Cobra owners. None of these cars has that big of a difference between hp and torque. The majority of them dyno somewhere around 530 hp/ 510 torque to the wheels. There a couple with either KB or Whipple blowers that dyno 630hp/ 630 tq at the wheels. The largest gap any of my friends have or had was my buddy with an F1-A Procharger. He put down 680 hp/ 590 tq. So I don't quite think that you can say that superchargers don't produce torque.
Second, I don't believe that the GN has failed. I had an uncle who ran mid 11's with his. He went on to put over 100k miles on that car. I still see many GN's and TR's at the track.
Third, most of my friends Cobras weighed somewhere in the 3500-3600 lbs range without them in it but it wasn't just because of the blower. I've participated in many blower swaps and the blower, aftercooler, pump, associated hardware, hoses, etc. at the most weighed 60 lbs. You got to remember that they also added the IRS, bigger brakes, larger sway bars, etc.
Finally, I would say that a nitrous equipped 427 would hang with a S/C 6.2. But lets look at the cost and longetivity of these two motors. You could get a pulley and a tune and have it installed in 30 minutes for a total cost of $500. Or you could buy a nitrous kit which is roughly $600 for a economical base kit. Then you would need to add all the safety features (purge, FPSS, etc.) for another $350. Then its going to take at least a couple of hours to install and in the end is only going to make as much power as the pulley and a tune. Not to mention the fact you will have to refill your bottle every now and then at $45 a pop. Not very economical. Also the cylinder pressures of a nitrous motor is just as bad as a FI motor. So there is no increased longetivity using one over the other.
On a side note I was wondering why the 6.2 isn't going to get great flowing heads? Why does the 7.0 have more potential? If you are going to go FI (whether it is nitrous/blower/turbo) then the sky's the limit right? It doesn't matter what size engine you have you just keep "turning the **** up".
I have seen first hand what power adders can do for any car. For example, Warren's 95 z28 with a 355 cubic inch motor: It made 400hp and 395 ft/lb N/A at the wheels. With a single plate nitrous kit it makes an 650 hp and an outlandish 887 ft/lb of torque "at the wheels." How does that compare to your circle of friends and their cobras, or even your car itself??? Do any of them have 8-second quarter mile potential at 3400 lbs. If so, please do tell!!!! We know first hand what power adders can do for smaller v8 engines. You're preaching to the choir! However, consider what it could do with a 427 cubic inch motor and cylinder heads at the level of the LS7. Even JW himself will defend my position on preferring the larger cubic inch motor N/A over the smaller motor with a super charger. "Any moron can install a super charger or nitrous kit after market." It is a little too much trouble to take a brand new motor and completely rebuild it, including re-sleeving the block and buying another set of cylinder heads to achieve this 427 cubic inch combo.
Lets start with the best foundation and build from the ground up. If you want to play with the big dogs, bring the pit bull and leave your poodle at home with your hair dryer!!! By the way, I'm not turning anyones ****, and the sky is only the limit when you learn how to fly!!!
Last edited by twistedwedge; Mar 21, 2007 at 11:56 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 694
From: Brighton, IL
It is up to GM as to what quality of cylinder head they use on any given cubic inch motor, not me. However, I don't see the likelihood of GM using their best cylinder heads on just any motor, especially their base model v8, supercharged or not!!! The power adder would help compensate for the lesser flowing heads, and I don't think it would be practical for GM to produce a motor with LS7 heads and a super charger, therefore out performing it's top dog - the z06 (in a camaro platform) That would be kind of stupid on their part, don't you think??? Back to the basic argument, would it be more preferred to have a supercharged 6.2L with standard LS2 heads,or the n/a 427 cubic inch "LS7" motor, if still available.
I have seen first hand what power adders can do for any car. For example, Warren's 95 z28 with a 355 cubic inch motor: It made 400hp and 395 ft/lb N/A at the wheels. With a single plate nitrous kit it makes an 650 hp and an outlandish 887 ft/lb of torque "at the wheels." How does that compare to your circle of friends and their cobras, or even your car itself??? Do any of them have 8-second quarter mile potential at 3400 lbs. If so, please do tell!!!! We know first hand what power adders can do for smaller v8 engines. You're preaching to the choir! However, consider what it could do with a 427 cubic inch motor and cylinder heads at the level of the LS7. Even JW himself will defend my position on preferring the larger cubic inch motor N/A over the smaller motor with a super charger. "Any moron can install a super charger or nitrous kit after market." It is a little too much trouble to take a brand new motor and completely rebuild it, including re-sleeving the block and buying another set of cylinder heads to achieve this 427 cubic inch combo.
Lets start with the best foundation and build from the ground up. If you want to play with the big dogs, bring the pit bull and leave your poodle at home with your hair dryer!!! By the way, I'm not turning anyones ****, and the sky is only the limit when you learn how to fly!!!
I have seen first hand what power adders can do for any car. For example, Warren's 95 z28 with a 355 cubic inch motor: It made 400hp and 395 ft/lb N/A at the wheels. With a single plate nitrous kit it makes an 650 hp and an outlandish 887 ft/lb of torque "at the wheels." How does that compare to your circle of friends and their cobras, or even your car itself??? Do any of them have 8-second quarter mile potential at 3400 lbs. If so, please do tell!!!! We know first hand what power adders can do for smaller v8 engines. You're preaching to the choir! However, consider what it could do with a 427 cubic inch motor and cylinder heads at the level of the LS7. Even JW himself will defend my position on preferring the larger cubic inch motor N/A over the smaller motor with a super charger. "Any moron can install a super charger or nitrous kit after market." It is a little too much trouble to take a brand new motor and completely rebuild it, including re-sleeving the block and buying another set of cylinder heads to achieve this 427 cubic inch combo.
Lets start with the best foundation and build from the ground up. If you want to play with the big dogs, bring the pit bull and leave your poodle at home with your hair dryer!!! By the way, I'm not turning anyones ****, and the sky is only the limit when you learn how to fly!!!
You also keep talking like there is no way that GM would put good flowing heads on an FI motor. I just don't see the reasoning behind this. With cam, pulley, and tune selection the difference in hp between the Corvette and the Camaro could be rather large. This would also let GM use the same block, internals, etc. for both cars which would keep costs down. We'll just have to wait and see.
When it comes down to the debate of small CI w/ FI vs. large CI N/A in the end they have the same potential (for the average joe. Once you get to a certain point then the FI route is the only availabe option.) However it is much more cost effective to make x amount of horsepower with the FI motor than it is with the N/A motor. I have seen it first hand with myself owning a N/A LT1 and watching just how little my friends spend to get the power they want.
Oh, and for the record, the best that any of my friends or myself has run was a 9.56 @ 144. This was with a full weight car (a/c, stereo, etc.) I'll give you a hint: it wasn't me. lol.
Last edited by 95firehawk; Mar 22, 2007 at 01:50 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
If the blown 6.2 comes with the burden of an iron block, I would rather see the 427. The 5th gen is probably going to weigh enough as it isl. No need for more of it, especially on the nose of the car. The car is going to have an IRS out back. Why deal with all the added weight and complexity (assuming that this IRS won't have any wheelhop or longevity issues) of having one by adding even more weight to the car and taking away from it's handling potential.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 694
From: Brighton, IL
That is mostly true concerning the 03/04 Cobras. The fuel pump is still good with those mods. It's once you go aftermarket blower/ N2O that you start needing the BAP or twin Focus pumps. However all of that still doesn't cost as much as a good H/C package plus install. Thats what I think is the main selling point of an FI motor. Cheap and easy to mod plus its relatively easy to install the parts.
Now I am a little concerned about the car having an iron block regardless if its FI or N/A. That's were you get most of the extra weight in the nose of the Terminators. The complete blower package itself weighs maybe 60 lbs but isn't the iron block more than 100 lbs heaveir than its aluminum counterpart?
Since its pretty safe to say (not 100% yet) that the top Camaro is getting an FI motor you mentioned something that has me a little concerned. I know that the Terminator Cobra's fuel system was pretty much maxed out with the mods that are mentioned above. I just hope GM doesn't install a fuel system that runs at 80% of its capacity when the car is still on the showroom floor.
Now I am a little concerned about the car having an iron block regardless if its FI or N/A. That's were you get most of the extra weight in the nose of the Terminators. The complete blower package itself weighs maybe 60 lbs but isn't the iron block more than 100 lbs heaveir than its aluminum counterpart?
Since its pretty safe to say (not 100% yet) that the top Camaro is getting an FI motor you mentioned something that has me a little concerned. I know that the Terminator Cobra's fuel system was pretty much maxed out with the mods that are mentioned above. I just hope GM doesn't install a fuel system that runs at 80% of its capacity when the car is still on the showroom floor.
Registered User
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 694
From: longwood, Fl, USA
Lets Hope that the GENERAL offers either motor at this point.
I am sure they will have at least 3 engine options for sure...including a V6.
If we get 6.2 S/C or 427 ci We should thanks the TOP DOGS of GM for giving us a REAL GIFT.
I just pray they have this engine option in 2009 and not make me buy 2010
I am sure they will have at least 3 engine options for sure...including a V6.
If we get 6.2 S/C or 427 ci We should thanks the TOP DOGS of GM for giving us a REAL GIFT.
I just pray they have this engine option in 2009 and not make me buy 2010
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 185
From: LaGrange KY USA
Your post is a little confusing. First you talk about your buddies N20-fed Z and then you go on to say that "any moron can install a super charger or nitrous kit after market". Then you go on to ask me if any of "my friends or myself" has 8 second potential with our cars. If you are still referring to your friends car it is neither big cubic inch nor N/A. Very impressive but doesn't quite meet the requirements for your argument. As a matter of fact I don't know of any modern 427 cars that have run in the 8's N/A. There is a couple of guys here (St. Louis) that run mid to high 9's N/A and that's about it.
You also keep talking like there is no way that GM would put good flowing heads on an FI motor. I just don't see the reasoning behind this. With cam, pulley, and tune selection the difference in hp between the Corvette and the Camaro could be rather large. This would also let GM use the same block, internals, etc. for both cars which would keep costs down. We'll just have to wait and see.
When it comes down to the debate of small CI w/ FI vs. large CI N/A in the end they have the same potential (for the average joe. Once you get to a certain point then the FI route is the only availabe option.) However it is much more cost effective to make x amount of horsepower with the FI motor than it is with the N/A motor. I have seen it first hand with myself owning a N/A LT1 and watching just how little my friends spend to get the power they want.
Oh, and for the record, the best that any of my friends or myself has run was a 9.56 @ 144. This was with a full weight car (a/c, stereo, etc.) I'll give you a hint: it wasn't me. lol.
You also keep talking like there is no way that GM would put good flowing heads on an FI motor. I just don't see the reasoning behind this. With cam, pulley, and tune selection the difference in hp between the Corvette and the Camaro could be rather large. This would also let GM use the same block, internals, etc. for both cars which would keep costs down. We'll just have to wait and see.
When it comes down to the debate of small CI w/ FI vs. large CI N/A in the end they have the same potential (for the average joe. Once you get to a certain point then the FI route is the only availabe option.) However it is much more cost effective to make x amount of horsepower with the FI motor than it is with the N/A motor. I have seen it first hand with myself owning a N/A LT1 and watching just how little my friends spend to get the power they want.
Oh, and for the record, the best that any of my friends or myself has run was a 9.56 @ 144. This was with a full weight car (a/c, stereo, etc.) I'll give you a hint: it wasn't me. lol.
(BTW, the white car at 5.87 (1/8) is damn close to running 8's (1/4), still has factory GM fuel injection (no DFI) still has factory crank.)
And to re-iterate about the cylinder heads...IMO theres no way GM puts the "LS7" heads on a s/c platform which would make it out perform their top dog the z06! Theres going to be some sacrifice there. IMO power adder would warrant the absence of the good cylinder heads.
I dont see how youre comparing a LT1 to your friends application. (Im guessing cobras?) Thats a completely unfair comparison. Maybe if it was apples to apples (LT1 with heads and a S/C and nitrous for example) How much more was the cobra than your car to begin with..
Im sure that your buddies are spending a lot more money than your giving them credit for. I know how much it costs to change superchargers, buy tuning programs, add ice boxes, nitrous etc. to cobras. Theyre not cheap to mod. and usually take TWO power adders to make impressive numbers.
This is greatly exaggerated. You are gonna need more than a smaller pulley and a tune to nail 500 rwhp. A pulley, decent exhaust setup, CAI, and tune usually net around 450 at the wheels, which is still quite a bit. If you wanna hit the 500 mark at the wheels in a Terminator, you are gonna need to have the blower ported, full exhaust, injectors and fuel pump to keep it safe, and that may be it, but I may be forgetting something. Although it is still a great deal for 500rwhp, all this stuff does add up.
