Whichever one makes more power.

 

I am familiar with VTEC. Like I said, I was up too late from working a long shift the night before and couldn't sleep...

Personally, I'd prefer that the Camaro gets a toned down 7.0L without the exotic internals and with traditional oiling. Maybe a milder camshaft to lower RPM. The heads and intake can stay though That should still be able to make well over 450hp with similar torque numbers.

My reasons are simple.
First, that means at least 100 pounds off the nose compared to an intercooled supercharged package.
Second, a less cluttered and more easily accessable engine compartment.
Third, the same engine would have a greater chance of making it into the vehicle that I am waiting on. The next generation RWD Impala SS! Plus, it would be another great addition to the truck line

 

427 isn't even going to be produced by the time the Camaro comes out not to mention the motor is more expensive to manufacture than the suprcharged 6.2 would be. 427 would also be more expensive to get more power out of. 6.2 would just be a pulley swap for an extra 40-50 hp.

 

s/c with a blower all the way. There is nothing like the acceleration and sound of a blower (jet turbine as I recall). And the new s/c that they are using for the Corvette is amazing. It's a big jump in technology. I don't know all the details, and don't think it's appropriate to share, but the technology drastically increases the efficiency of the blower (which means more net hp).

As for VVT vs VTEC. VTEC as mentioned before, is able to make a change between 2 cam lobes allowing it to vary lift, duration, and timing (intake and exhaust cam open/close events relative to eachother and piston position). VTEC is Honda's name for a technology developed by Eaton, Nissan also uses it but they call it something different. VVT like what is on the new Ford engines and the new Chevy small blocks is only variable timing which is more a emission/driveability thing. It allows them to run a higher performance cam for top end performance with out sacrificing the emissions and driveability at low rpm and part throttle.

 

I meant 6.2L with a blower,
not s/c with a blower

 

Switching to Powdered Metal rods, steel valves, conventional oiling, and a truck camshaft would solve the cost issue. The castings are already there from the LS7. It would cost no more to build than any other Gen3/4 V8. It would cost much less than adding a supercharger, plus the additional pulleys, intercooler plumbing, and cooling needed. Oh yeah, don't forget the stronger forged rods and pistons that everybody is hoping for. It all adds up.

And who really knows what could be out there in 2 more years from now?

 

But it isn't a "real" 427, it's an LS7. Its a LSx based small block just like the 6.0L LS2. In theory if you hook up the same exhaust on an LS2 and and LS7, they really shouldn't sound any different.

 

I don't see them doing that for an engine to just go in the Camaro and then pay the high price to certify the engine again, I just don't see that engine as even being an option really. 6.2 would still be cheaper and have more of an aftermarket, this isn't BMW or Mercedes, GM doesn't have a lot of money to be throwing around right now. 6.2 just makes more financial sense. The blower might not even be an option, might just get the regular 6.2 with a "ram air" and badges to differentiate it from the regular Z28 or whatever the standard V8 is gonna be called.

 

The LS3 is a reduced cost (I know it's less displacement) version of the LS7. LS3 is using L92 heads which were one of the early designs for the LS7.
The LS7 barely holds together with the high end components that it has.
Putting a blower on a 6.2L isn't going to be cheap, but trying to match the performance numbers with just displacment would cost even more. The LS7 is maxed out, so it would take new block machining on the LSX block, new heads to match the new bores, plus new high end valves, pistons, rods, bearings, etc. (the dry sump might be more to drop the engine lower for better cg, compared to the performance gains) to hold together at the high rpm, because I know you don't want a 5000-5500 rpm redline.

 

How on EARTH would a SUPERCHARGED 6.2 be "cheaper"?!?!?!?!?!? Factor in everything AdioSS said (which I agree fully) and tell me again how the 6.2 would be cheaper??!??

A slightly larger piston or crank is still closer in price to another run-of-the-mill piston or crank, than a supercharger, all of its supporting components, and the forged internals required to stand the abuse!!

Have you not priced out blowers lately?? They usually seem to retail around ~$5000!!! So knock off the mark-up, their true "COST" is probably still around ~$500 - 1000 (I'm totally guessing here!) but I can guarantee you they cost a helluva lot more than the larger pistons and crank required for a 7.0L vs. 6.2L .

 

Have you priced the 427 lately? They ain't cheap. GM isn't paying $5k for any blower and they have used blowers on the 3.8 for years and they weren't exactly priced like a BMW. Even with all the extra parts that come with a supercharger it will still be cheaper to produce than the 427 which is hand built.

 

Your point is well taken.
The 600-650hp LS9 (6.2L with s/c) will be more expensive then the 505hp LS7. But you get 100-150hp more, so that should be expected.
So if that is our discussion, you are correct.

If our discussion is LS9 vs a naturally aspirated LS(something) then I believe the s/c option would be cheaper. Your point of "A slightly larger piston or crank is still closer in price to another run-of-the-mill piston or crank, than a supercharger" is a bit misleading, as I don't know any run-of-the-mill pistons and cranks that survive 600+hp. Plus bearings, plus you need the drysump, plus block machining, plus new cylinder head. Anyways, it's going to be more expensive then LS7.
Yes the LS3 will need it's bottom end upgraded, but it won't have to rev as high to meet the performance targets compared to a naturally aspirated engine.

What other 600+hp engines with big torque are there that don't use forced induction. None, there's a reason. Ferrari, Lambo, Zonda, whoever may ahve the power, but not the torque to match. Bottom line, getting 600+hp with high torque with all motor is too expensive.

Supercharger is the way to go!!!

 

A couple things:

1) I didn't say that a supercharger cost GM ~$5000 ..... like I said, that's RETAIL, while their true COST is probably less than ~$1000.

2) the LS7 is hand built. But was the LS6? No. The LS2? No. The LS1?? No!! Just because they hand built the LS7, does not mean that a "427" LSx-series engine has to be hand built!!

3) the reason the LS7 costs ~$12,xxx is because A) it's hand built, B) it has a dry sump system, C) it has titanium rods, springs, retainers, blah, blah, blah, and D) because it's from the Z06 Corvette, so they ASK $12,000 and people will PAY IT!!!

Do you think a standard "427" c.i. engine would COST GM any more money to build (mass production, like the LS1/2/6's) just because it has bigger pistons and a bigger crank?? I mean really. How much more does a slightly bigger piston cost?? And once they've got the PARTS, the assembly is EXACTLY THE SAME.

HOWEVER, a supercharged motor (I don't care if it's on a 4.8L or a 7.0L) will cost more. The blower has a given cost. It will require (unless they want people to blow up their engines) forged crank/rods/pistons. You don't think the hard parts alone won't cost more??? That, and now there's an extra few steps involved in assembling the motor that the NA motor does NOT have.

Fine, if they mass produce a S/C 6.2L, the COST will be wide-spread, and since it's in a vehicle that has a larger/broader market than the "elite" Z06, they will price it accordingly. The end result to "us" may be less, but the ACTUAL cost to "them" will be more. They just mark-up the LS7 because they can .

 

An LS7 retails for around $13,719 and an LS2 retails for around $6,500. That is a difference of about $7,200. Even the most expensive supercharger for an LS2 is "only" $5,000. Most of them are actually around $4,000. That is still about $2,200 cheaper for the LS2 and s/c than an LS7...

The 6.2L s/c would be cheaper than an LS7. The only way they would produce a 427 that *might* be cheaper than a 6.2 s/c option would be to get rid of the titanium connecting rods, the dry-sum oil system, and the other exotic components, but that would decrease the HP thus making the 6.2L s/c even more appealing...

EDIT: I started this post before you had posted the above reply Pete.....

 

LS7 didn't have titanium components because they felt like it. They need those components to survive the rpm that is required to hit 505hp.
What materials would be required to hit 600-650hp. Rods, valve, and retainers are just the beginning.
They would need variable valvetrain (variable lift, duration - not just phasing), variable intake (continuously variable runners, maybe plenum too), high compression ultra light pistons, etc.


For 600+hp and high torque, it's still supercharger