Z284ever drives a Camaro SS ---and he likes it!
09-05-2009, 08:51 PM
#31
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 233
I bet you would have gotten more respect in your military fatigues. Still while that may get you more respect and a better deal, there is no call for disrespect.
I got similar treatment with the 05 GTO. I had just come from the Ford dealership when Mustangs were new and scarce. I was just looking. I was seriously considering the Ford for a change but wanted to check out the GTO. The girl who showed me it was young and did not know much about them. She went to get the key but took a while comming back out to the car. She said the sales manager had grabbed her on the way back out and said something to the extent hes not going to test drive that car. Needless to say that ended my curiousity. The Mustang on the other hand, the only one on the lot was a convertible V6 and was only sold anyway. The Salesman was friendly enough but let me know I was lucky that hed let me get one at MSRP when other dealers were charging markup.
Anyway I dont tollarate disrespect. Sometimes I can be vindictive. If a dealer, or any company is willing to let their salesmen be so disrespectful, if their lucky I might tell their management. If Im not in the mood to be bothered I tell everyone of my bad experience and warn them to steer clear if they dont want the same treatment. Its their responsibility to respect clients/customers in my eyes. If visiting their business cost me respect, then I cost them business and reputation
Being disrespected, or even worse comming across someone who feels I owe them my business is a pet pieve of mine.
Thank you for your Service.
I got similar treatment with the 05 GTO. I had just come from the Ford dealership when Mustangs were new and scarce. I was just looking. I was seriously considering the Ford for a change but wanted to check out the GTO. The girl who showed me it was young and did not know much about them. She went to get the key but took a while comming back out to the car. She said the sales manager had grabbed her on the way back out and said something to the extent hes not going to test drive that car. Needless to say that ended my curiousity. The Mustang on the other hand, the only one on the lot was a convertible V6 and was only sold anyway. The Salesman was friendly enough but let me know I was lucky that hed let me get one at MSRP when other dealers were charging markup.
Anyway I dont tollarate disrespect. Sometimes I can be vindictive. If a dealer, or any company is willing to let their salesmen be so disrespectful, if their lucky I might tell their management. If Im not in the mood to be bothered I tell everyone of my bad experience and warn them to steer clear if they dont want the same treatment. Its their responsibility to respect clients/customers in my eyes. If visiting their business cost me respect, then I cost them business and reputation
Being disrespected, or even worse comming across someone who feels I owe them my business is a pet pieve of mine.
Thank you for your Service.
09-05-2009, 10:29 PM
#32
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: South Bend , IN
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WOW , not expecting to hear that kinda a review from Charlie . I would really love to drive a SS with pedders or pdaft parts , a ripper shifter and with a nice lightweight set of 18" Fikse's mounted on PS2's . Then it may be a different ballgame , I would hope anyways .
Find a Silver one with the red recaro camaro camaro camaro camaro seats . My god are they rare though .
Find a Silver one with the red recaro camaro camaro camaro camaro seats . My god are they rare though .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; 09-05-2009 at 10:31 PM.
09-05-2009, 11:48 PM
#33
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Location: Chicagoland IL
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I found exactly that, but it's very expensive and very far away. Trying to decide if I really want to pull the trigger on it. Would make a nice bookend to my 10K mile black '89 though.
09-06-2009, 12:08 AM
#34
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Location: South Bend , IN
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Man , it sure would . A yellow one would compliment it equally ...the grey/black stripe ones though . Im not fond of the tan interior gold/black stripe cars . I guess its just how bad ya really want it as to how justifyable it is . Down the road I will be buying another 3rd gen , not to modify or change in anyway and own forever . I would and probably will drop sizeable coin for 89 or 90 LB9/5-speed Medium Blue metallic Iroc-z or 1LE with an odometer that read under 20K miles . Thats gonna be like finding a needle in a haystack . Even though I dont own anymore , the Irocs are near and dear to me and justifyable to pay for one thats had a nice and easy life . Im patient and waiting until I can blow that kinda money .
Good luck on your purchase man . btw ....how many miles on the silver 85 ? Did it have the contour seats too ?
Good luck on your purchase man . btw ....how many miles on the silver 85 ? Did it have the contour seats too ?
09-06-2009, 12:12 AM
#35
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Man , it sure would . A yellow one would compliment it equally ...the grey/black stripe ones though . Im not fond of the tan interior gold/black stripe cars . I guess its just how bad ya really want it as to how justifyable it is . Down the road I will be buying another 3rd gen , not to modify or change in anyway and own forever . I would and probably will drop sizeable coin for 89 or 90 LB9/5-speed Medium Blue metallic Iroc-z or 1LE with an odometer that read under 20K miles . Thats gonna be like finding a needle in a haystack . Even though I dont own anymore , the Irocs are near and dear to me and justifyable to pay for one thats had a nice and easy life . Im patient and waiting until I can blow that kinda money .
Good luck on your purchase man . btw ....how many miles on the silver 85 ? Did it have the contour seats too ?
Good luck on your purchase man . btw ....how many miles on the silver 85 ? Did it have the contour seats too ?
Silver, red LS Conteur seats, 22K miles.
09-06-2009, 01:19 AM
#36
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Location: The Golden State
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Really?
Hmm. I walked into a dealership and they told me that they were selling base SS/RS's for 42k. Alright...that's ridiculous, but I was only there to test drive, not to buy. I'm comparing all the performance cars that are within my means before I buy anything. I told the guy that, told him I'd already driven a '10 Mustang GT, WRX, RX-8, a used Vette, and a Genesis Coupe, and I was looking to test out a 370z and SS Camaro, because I'd be gone for OCS the next 4 months and wanted to test drive now when there's no snow on the ground so I can make a purchase when I get back....so he says he'll need to ask somebody, and he goes takes me back to another salesman and introduces me and says I'm looking to get into a new V8 Camaro....so I kindly correct him and say no, I'm looking to test drive one, I'm only comparing today. Nods and Smiles....says to ask this other guy...I get taken to him, and again I get introduced as wanting to buy. Again I correct, and tell him to lay off the sales pressure, which I did not recieve anywhere else. This new guy tells me that they require a 5k safety deposit to test drive a Camaro because it's such a hot car. I started laughing, told him it was a Camaro not a Ferrari, thanked them for wasting 20 minutes of my life and providing an extremely poor sales environment, and walked out. They didn't have a single other customer there at the time. They literally would have had nothing better to do. I always try to go to dealerships when they're not busy so there's less pressure on everybody involved, because I wasn't there to buy right then and I realize that in a commission job, any time they're not on the floor is time they could miss a potential customer.
This is the 3rd ridiculous experience I've had in as many months at a chevrolet dealership...and I doubt I'll be going back into one. Maybe it really is a great car. Doesn't look like I'll ever find out though, because I get treated like **** every time I'm anywhere with the Chevy name. Fbodyfather...if you want your company to survive, something....anything....needs to be done about your dealers. I don't really care if there's any direct control over it or not, the fact remains that I've been to many dealerships and have yet to have a positive experience with Chevy. Patterns don't exist for nothing. Tell somebody to Fix It.
I mean no disrespect to anybody here (especially you Fbodyfather, I've been a lurker but I've read most of your stuff and you have been great with the enthusiasts here)...and I'm not hatin' on the Camaro. But man, I just can't justify buying a product when I'm treated so poorly. And I've never been treated anything but poorly at a chevy dealership.
Hmm. I walked into a dealership and they told me that they were selling base SS/RS's for 42k. Alright...that's ridiculous, but I was only there to test drive, not to buy. I'm comparing all the performance cars that are within my means before I buy anything. I told the guy that, told him I'd already driven a '10 Mustang GT, WRX, RX-8, a used Vette, and a Genesis Coupe, and I was looking to test out a 370z and SS Camaro, because I'd be gone for OCS the next 4 months and wanted to test drive now when there's no snow on the ground so I can make a purchase when I get back....so he says he'll need to ask somebody, and he goes takes me back to another salesman and introduces me and says I'm looking to get into a new V8 Camaro....so I kindly correct him and say no, I'm looking to test drive one, I'm only comparing today. Nods and Smiles....says to ask this other guy...I get taken to him, and again I get introduced as wanting to buy. Again I correct, and tell him to lay off the sales pressure, which I did not recieve anywhere else. This new guy tells me that they require a 5k safety deposit to test drive a Camaro because it's such a hot car. I started laughing, told him it was a Camaro not a Ferrari, thanked them for wasting 20 minutes of my life and providing an extremely poor sales environment, and walked out. They didn't have a single other customer there at the time. They literally would have had nothing better to do. I always try to go to dealerships when they're not busy so there's less pressure on everybody involved, because I wasn't there to buy right then and I realize that in a commission job, any time they're not on the floor is time they could miss a potential customer.
This is the 3rd ridiculous experience I've had in as many months at a chevrolet dealership...and I doubt I'll be going back into one. Maybe it really is a great car. Doesn't look like I'll ever find out though, because I get treated like **** every time I'm anywhere with the Chevy name. Fbodyfather...if you want your company to survive, something....anything....needs to be done about your dealers. I don't really care if there's any direct control over it or not, the fact remains that I've been to many dealerships and have yet to have a positive experience with Chevy. Patterns don't exist for nothing. Tell somebody to Fix It.
I mean no disrespect to anybody here (especially you Fbodyfather, I've been a lurker but I've read most of your stuff and you have been great with the enthusiasts here)...and I'm not hatin' on the Camaro. But man, I just can't justify buying a product when I'm treated so poorly. And I've never been treated anything but poorly at a chevy dealership.
Fortunately, there was a Ford dealer not more than 500 yards away, and I got to try out the Mustang GT within 45 minutes of sitting behind the wheel of the SS. The Mustang didn't have the Track Pack, but it still felt lively, and didn't have that sitting-in-a-bathtub feeling.
It was no issue getting a test drive the Mustang. When I walk into a Chevy dealership and it's obvious I'm intrested in only the Camaro, I tend to see a shift in attitude of the sales people in general. Almost as if THEY are doing ME a favor by even taking time with me with the Camaro. Over at Ford, they actually seem like they want to sell me a Mustang as much as any other car in the showroom.
I haven't got a chance to do seat time in a Challenger yet. When I did manage to find a dealer with one, it was either a customer ordered car which was being prepped in the garage (which I was taken to check out, both inside & out) or was in the showroom as a traffic builder. Now, my 2 closest Chrysler dealers are gone (both the only one actually in San Francisco, and it's next closest dealer down in Serremonte... Ford recently actually added a local dealer... here in the city itself...2 blocks down from a recently closed GM dealer!!) and I have to go a pretty good distance to even get to a Chrysler dealer.
Most sales people I find at Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealers seemed to be more than happy to talk about the Challenger or show you one in the back, even if they couldn't take you on a test drive.
By the way..... did we ever find out who actually got ahold of Charlie's login?
Last edited by guionM; 09-06-2009 at 01:23 AM.
09-06-2009, 09:28 AM
#37
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When I ordered my '89 it was either automatic and 5.7 or stick and 5.0. There was no way I wasn't getting a stick though.
09-06-2009, 05:18 PM
#38
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Location: The Golden State
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Charlie, to be perfectly honest, I really couldn't pick one. Not because all are bad, but all have something I admire and something I'm not crazy about.
If someone gave me 32 grand, and I had to pick one of the 3 within 10 seconds or lose the money, I'd have to go withe the Camaro SS. It's a good compromise car. It's tops in looks and speed, and apparently is a blend between the Challenger and Mustang in ride and handling.
But I also demand a good interior and great handling. That makes the Mustang a better choice. I don't run my car down the quarter mile every weekend, but I do 0-60 runs almost everyday as a merge onto the freeway and I use the limits of handling far more than I use more than 155 mph of top speed.
The Challenger's interior IMHO while not as stylish, seems more solid and also seems to have better materials than the Camaro. Since my next car would be my only car, the interior room and trunk space of the Challenger is 2nd to none. The car is a long distance interstate runner, and at least around here, it gets as much attention as the Camaro.
But...
Outside of the excellent front end clip, I'm not crazy about Mustang's exterior design. Challenger desparately needs the SRT suspension tune... or at least, real tires, and Camaro's dash leaves me cold, and it's trunk opening is a joke.
If I had to make an immediate choice of the GT, R/T, or SS, I'd have to go with Camaro SS.... but I could easily see myself no to much later wishing I went for the Mustang GT Track Pack or the Challenger R/T.
I'd have no hesitations whatsoever if it were a choice of V6s. No contest.....Camaro V6!
If someone gave me 32 grand, and I had to pick one of the 3 within 10 seconds or lose the money, I'd have to go withe the Camaro SS. It's a good compromise car. It's tops in looks and speed, and apparently is a blend between the Challenger and Mustang in ride and handling.
But I also demand a good interior and great handling. That makes the Mustang a better choice. I don't run my car down the quarter mile every weekend, but I do 0-60 runs almost everyday as a merge onto the freeway and I use the limits of handling far more than I use more than 155 mph of top speed.
The Challenger's interior IMHO while not as stylish, seems more solid and also seems to have better materials than the Camaro. Since my next car would be my only car, the interior room and trunk space of the Challenger is 2nd to none. The car is a long distance interstate runner, and at least around here, it gets as much attention as the Camaro.
But...
Outside of the excellent front end clip, I'm not crazy about Mustang's exterior design. Challenger desparately needs the SRT suspension tune... or at least, real tires, and Camaro's dash leaves me cold, and it's trunk opening is a joke.
If I had to make an immediate choice of the GT, R/T, or SS, I'd have to go with Camaro SS.... but I could easily see myself no to much later wishing I went for the Mustang GT Track Pack or the Challenger R/T.
I'd have no hesitations whatsoever if it were a choice of V6s. No contest.....Camaro V6!
Last edited by guionM; 09-06-2009 at 05:20 PM.
09-06-2009, 07:31 PM
#39
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I'm thinking that between the Camaro and Mustang - I'd probably choose the Mustang. For one, I like the Mustang's driving position and interior much better than the Camaro's. My ability to see things around me, see where the corners of the car are, is a pretty important driving element to me. Being in a Camaro really diminishes my kinesthetic senses - and that directly reduces my 'fun to drive'. Although the Mustang is not itself a small car, it feels smaller when you drive it. Something that you absolutely can't say about the Camaro. The Mustang is also much easier to toss around. It's steering much more satisfying. In the Camaro, you feel all sorts of powerful gravitational forces pulling down on you. This notion propogated by some, that you somehow wouldn't notice it's heft is ridiculous. You feel it - trust me. Sure it's nicely balanced, but the feeling of mass permeates the entire driving experience.
I haven't driven a Challenger yet, but I've driven enough LX cars to have a decent idea of what that might be like. And in a forced decision between all three, I'd probably pick the Challenger. Why? Neither the Camaro SS nor Mustang GT leave me breatheless - so might as well get the one that'll fit me, wifey and the three kids and have a trunk big enough for some stuff.
Maybe next year's 5.0L Mustang will make my heart pitter-patter or the '12 Boss might.
That's what I'm looking for, a thrilling drive. That special kind of excitement that you can feel in the pit of your stomach, when everything is just spot on and the car becomes an extension of your driving self. I started a thread last year or so about benchmarking the M3. GM needs to do that. Squeeze all that driving goodness into a Camaro - and call me.
I haven't driven a Challenger yet, but I've driven enough LX cars to have a decent idea of what that might be like. And in a forced decision between all three, I'd probably pick the Challenger. Why? Neither the Camaro SS nor Mustang GT leave me breatheless - so might as well get the one that'll fit me, wifey and the three kids and have a trunk big enough for some stuff.
Maybe next year's 5.0L Mustang will make my heart pitter-patter or the '12 Boss might.
That's what I'm looking for, a thrilling drive. That special kind of excitement that you can feel in the pit of your stomach, when everything is just spot on and the car becomes an extension of your driving self. I started a thread last year or so about benchmarking the M3. GM needs to do that. Squeeze all that driving goodness into a Camaro - and call me.
Last edited by Z284ever; 09-06-2009 at 07:50 PM.
09-06-2009, 09:31 PM
#40
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Maybe next year's 5.0L Mustang will make my heart pitter-patter or the '12 Boss might.
That's what I'm looking for, a thrilling drive. That special kind of excitement that you can feel in the pit of your stomach, when everything is just spot on and the car becomes an extension of your driving self. I started a thread last year or so about benchmarking the M3. GM needs to do that. Squeeze all that driving goodness into a Camaro - and call me.
That's what I'm looking for, a thrilling drive. That special kind of excitement that you can feel in the pit of your stomach, when everything is just spot on and the car becomes an extension of your driving self. I started a thread last year or so about benchmarking the M3. GM needs to do that. Squeeze all that driving goodness into a Camaro - and call me.
I really like the sound of the 5.0 Mustang. If it is as good as people keep saying it will be, it could be my first Ford.
09-07-2009, 12:20 AM
#41
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Posts: 233
The ONLY reason I got a short test drive of a Camaro was because a salesperson that I'm aquanted with managed to take me out "on a short ride", and then when out of sight of the dealership we swapped seats, and I got to put a mile or so on it. If it wasn't for my knowing him, and that person convincing the sales manager, to this day I still wouldn't have likely test drove a Camaro SS.
Fortunately, there was a Ford dealer not more than 500 yards away, and I got to try out the Mustang GT within 45 minutes of sitting behind the wheel of the SS. The Mustang didn't have the Track Pack, but it still felt lively, and didn't have that sitting-in-a-bathtub feeling.
It was no issue getting a test drive the Mustang. When I walk into a Chevy dealership and it's obvious I'm intrested in only the Camaro, I tend to see a shift in attitude of the sales people in general. Almost as if THEY are doing ME a favor by even taking time with me with the Camaro. Over at Ford, they actually seem like they want to sell me a Mustang as much as any other car in the showroom.
I haven't got a chance to do seat time in a Challenger yet. When I did manage to find a dealer with one, it was either a customer ordered car which was being prepped in the garage (which I was taken to check out, both inside & out) or was in the showroom as a traffic builder. Now, my 2 closest Chrysler dealers are gone (both the only one actually in San Francisco, and it's next closest dealer down in Serremonte... Ford recently actually added a local dealer... here in the city itself...2 blocks down from a recently closed GM dealer!!) and I have to go a pretty good distance to even get to a Chrysler dealer.
Most sales people I find at Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealers seemed to be more than happy to talk about the Challenger or show you one in the back, even if they couldn't take you on a test drive.
By the way..... did we ever find out who actually got ahold of Charlie's login?
My dream 3rd gen would be much like your black one or a metallic blue late 80s IROC. Big downside is that the manual never came with the 350.
Fortunately, there was a Ford dealer not more than 500 yards away, and I got to try out the Mustang GT within 45 minutes of sitting behind the wheel of the SS. The Mustang didn't have the Track Pack, but it still felt lively, and didn't have that sitting-in-a-bathtub feeling.
It was no issue getting a test drive the Mustang. When I walk into a Chevy dealership and it's obvious I'm intrested in only the Camaro, I tend to see a shift in attitude of the sales people in general. Almost as if THEY are doing ME a favor by even taking time with me with the Camaro. Over at Ford, they actually seem like they want to sell me a Mustang as much as any other car in the showroom.
I haven't got a chance to do seat time in a Challenger yet. When I did manage to find a dealer with one, it was either a customer ordered car which was being prepped in the garage (which I was taken to check out, both inside & out) or was in the showroom as a traffic builder. Now, my 2 closest Chrysler dealers are gone (both the only one actually in San Francisco, and it's next closest dealer down in Serremonte... Ford recently actually added a local dealer... here in the city itself...2 blocks down from a recently closed GM dealer!!) and I have to go a pretty good distance to even get to a Chrysler dealer.
Most sales people I find at Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealers seemed to be more than happy to talk about the Challenger or show you one in the back, even if they couldn't take you on a test drive.
By the way..... did we ever find out who actually got ahold of Charlie's login?
My dream 3rd gen would be much like your black one or a metallic blue late 80s IROC. Big downside is that the manual never came with the 350.
09-07-2009, 01:25 AM
#42
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
I'm thinking that between the Camaro and Mustang - I'd probably choose the Mustang. For one, I like the Mustang's driving position and interior much better than the Camaro's. My ability to see things around me, see where the corners of the car are, is a pretty important driving element to me. Being in a Camaro really diminishes my kinesthetic senses - and that directly reduces my 'fun to drive'. Although the Mustang is not itself a small car, it feels smaller when you drive it. Something that you absolutely can't say about the Camaro. The Mustang is also much easier to toss around. It's steering much more satisfying. In the Camaro, you feel all sorts of powerful gravitational forces pulling down on you. This notion propogated by some, that you somehow wouldn't notice it's heft is ridiculous. You feel it - trust me. Sure it's nicely balanced, but the feeling of mass permeates the entire driving experience.
I haven't driven a Challenger yet, but I've driven enough LX cars to have a decent idea of what that might be like. And in a forced decision between all three, I'd probably pick the Challenger. Why? Neither the Camaro SS nor Mustang GT leave me breatheless - so might as well get the one that'll fit me, wifey and the three kids and have a trunk big enough for some stuff.
Maybe next year's 5.0L Mustang will make my heart pitter-patter or the '12 Boss might.
That's what I'm looking for, a thrilling drive. That special kind of excitement that you can feel in the pit of your stomach, when everything is just spot on and the car becomes an extension of your driving self. I started a thread last year or so about benchmarking the M3. GM needs to do that. Squeeze all that driving goodness into a Camaro - and call me.
I haven't driven a Challenger yet, but I've driven enough LX cars to have a decent idea of what that might be like. And in a forced decision between all three, I'd probably pick the Challenger. Why? Neither the Camaro SS nor Mustang GT leave me breatheless - so might as well get the one that'll fit me, wifey and the three kids and have a trunk big enough for some stuff.
Maybe next year's 5.0L Mustang will make my heart pitter-patter or the '12 Boss might.
That's what I'm looking for, a thrilling drive. That special kind of excitement that you can feel in the pit of your stomach, when everything is just spot on and the car becomes an extension of your driving self. I started a thread last year or so about benchmarking the M3. GM needs to do that. Squeeze all that driving goodness into a Camaro - and call me.
I would use it as my sole car, so the interior space is perfect. It's highly stylish. Thanks to Chrysler's own screwups, the car is going to be far rarer than Camaros or Mustangs and therefore likely to hold resale value better. It's Hemi V8 is surprisingly fuel efficient (tops both the SS and even the GT on the highway). It has good grunt, and it's a minor miracle it handles as well as it does with the wimpy tires it comes with... a decent set of proper tires will make things alot better.
I agree with you in that the Mustang is simply more tossable. Camaro does have some moves, but like you point out, it takes more effort to get anything out of it.
On the flip side, I find myself favoring the V6 Camaro over the V8 as the better deal. That 32K for the SS IMHO should buy a hands down winner over the Mustang GT, however IMHO, it only buys a draw. And I'm being biased in favor of the Camaro, because most every article I've read gives the Mustang a clear win.
The V6 Camaro, on the other hand goes for a mere $23K. That includes a 100 mph quarter mile V6. A chassis that's a tank. IRS. the killer looks. Spring for the optional tires, and you can run up to 155 mph... and even that's governed. Even though Mustang GT's will hand you your head, the performance difference between them is well worth the $3-4,000 savings and what you get that more than makes up for the disadvantage.
I can easily see myself getting a V6 Camaro.
I have difficulty seeing myself as easily getting a Camaro SS over a GT/TP, or an R/T.
09-07-2009, 06:58 AM
#43
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Personally, I can't wait for some of you guys to buy up the Mustang. At least that way, we'd have less people canning the Camaro (glass half full scenario) and more people actually writing constructive material, for a change.
09-07-2009, 08:52 AM
#44
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Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
Actually, I think the fact that this site is NOT a full-blown fanboy site is what makes it so appealing. If you want the URL to a site that does not allow an opposing POV (when it comes to Camaro vs xyz), let me know.
And whilst you may not like the content, I don't see anything that isn't 'constructive' in the last several posts. "Constructive criticism" is still constructive, and might actually result in a better car (assuming that is possible, in your mind).
Bob
And whilst you may not like the content, I don't see anything that isn't 'constructive' in the last several posts. "Constructive criticism" is still constructive, and might actually result in a better car (assuming that is possible, in your mind).
Bob
09-07-2009, 10:45 AM
#45
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
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I agree, $23K for the base V6 is a screaming value.
You know, for years we've been saying how important it is to have Camaro appeal to female buyers. I wonder how it's doing with that? I've seen many dozens of Camaros on the road already, and only one of them had a female driver.
