View Poll Results: What concerns YOU more on the Camaro?
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll
What concerns you more? Cost or weight?
07-06-2008, 12:08 PM
#316
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Location: Sterling Heights, MI
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07-06-2008, 12:16 PM
#317
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07-06-2008, 12:32 PM
#318
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I hope that you do purchase one and enjoy it though. I hope the car is a great success. But I'm beginning to see some cracks beginning to form in the dam.
I was at a car event last night and got the chance to shoot the bull with some of my fellow Camaro club members. We've got over 250 members, and a year ago I would have said that ALL of them with the ability purchase a new car, would be buying a 5th gen. It doesn't seem so anymore. Many who were certain to buy previously, are now saying they are no longer in the market for one. For any number of reasons, but mostly high fuel prices. Abit surprising to me actually, because I always figured that this hardcore cadre of Camaro guys would remain undeterred.
07-06-2008, 12:33 PM
#319
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I hear there's a car called Mustang you may have heard of....rumors from good sources persist about how powerful and light it will be, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see about that.
07-06-2008, 12:40 PM
#320
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I think you've asked me that before - who knows, maybe even in this monster thread. 
The CTS-V doesn't pretend to be a ponycar. It's a 5 passenger, 4 door Cadillac performance sedan. One which will weigh less than any comparably equipped (if that's possible), 5th gen V8 Camaro. It has greater structural rigidity, a superior front suspension and really strong brakes. If the G8 GT with the 19" wheel performance package is any sort of benchmark, a CTS-V(1) should outhandle the Camaro SS, maybe even by a good margin. Anyway, as you know my plan was to buy a Z/28, not an SS. And the Z/28 will weigh even more than the porkalicious SS. That's a complete and utter travesty in my book.
The CTS-V doesn't pretend to be a ponycar. It's a 5 passenger, 4 door Cadillac performance sedan. One which will weigh less than any comparably equipped (if that's possible), 5th gen V8 Camaro. It has greater structural rigidity, a superior front suspension and really strong brakes. If the G8 GT with the 19" wheel performance package is any sort of benchmark, a CTS-V(1) should outhandle the Camaro SS, maybe even by a good margin. Anyway, as you know my plan was to buy a Z/28, not an SS. And the Z/28 will weigh even more than the porkalicious SS. That's a complete and utter travesty in my book.
Until then, absent any news articles, magazine articles, taking into account of people who have actually had quality and hands-on time with the Camaro, and looking at this fairly and objectively, and not from the point of a member of the "Zeta-despiser/Sigma-worshiper" brigade, here's my assumptions (which I feel are very close to dead on:
1. The V6 Camaro will be under 3600 pounds. The V8 "SS" will be between 3700 and 3800 pounds. The Z28 will be 3900-4000 pounds.
2. The Camaro will easily outhandle the last gen CTSv. The Camaro will be 5" wider will be slightly shorter (just under 190" to CTS' 191) and will have a far stronger chassis. It will also weigh in around the same ballpark, slightly less.
3. The new Camaro SS will also pretty much whip a the last edition CTSv in handling. Those results are pending, but if I was betting, I'd put my money on the Camaro having far better handling dynamics, better steering, and better suspension than the old CTSv. The layout is better (wider, shorter, lower center of gravity, better weight balence), the parts are better (there's been years of experience since the old CTSv was created).
More expensive and sophisticated doesn't equate with better. What counts is what the parts do. Both the BMW 3 series and the 5 series use front struts. Yes...even the "M" cars. So saying a car handles better simply because it has SLA or some other pricey system is a bit misguided.
The last edition CTS (191" long) was no wider than a Chevrolet Malibu at 70". The CTSv based on that skinny chassis was 3850. The Pontiac GTO (189" long) had a width of 72" and weighed 3750. The newer, wider (72.5") Cadillac CTS with the 3.6 weighs 3861. The G8 is even wider still (74.5") and weighs 3885, a mere 24 pounds more.
The new CTSv with an added 2.5" of width will weigh roughly 4200 pounds. Making the car wider added about 150 pounds. Using the new supercharged engine and the related chassis and performance upgrades (as the Z28 will have) also added another 200 pounds.
The Zeta has a better independent rear suspension setup than the Sigma. It takes less space, has better geometry, and is far more resistant to axlehop and self destruction than the Sigma setup. With the same wheelbase as the new CTS, the Zeta based G8 has 39" of rear legroom while the CTS has 35. G8 has 17.5 cu/ft of trunk space to Cadillac's 13.6... even the Malibu's trunk at 15 cu/ft is bigger. The last edition CTS' luggage space is, by comparison, 12.8 cubic feet.
07-06-2008, 12:51 PM
#321
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You say this:
Then you say this:
Curious.
If you think any Camaro is coming in at 3600 pounds, well you're on mind altering drugs.
Better start that 6th gen thread, Guy.
Then you say this:
If you think any Camaro is coming in at 3600 pounds, well you're on mind altering drugs.
Better start that 6th gen thread, Guy.
07-06-2008, 01:23 PM
#322
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Location: Commerce, mi, USA
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Again thanks guionM I'm not as expert at articulating handling criteria as you so that helps
Originally posted by Z284ever
I can't imagine any modern car, truck or SUV not fulfilling those requirements. Honestly, I'm more discriminating than that. Quite abit more actually.
I can't imagine any modern car, truck or SUV not fulfilling those requirements. Honestly, I'm more discriminating than that. Quite abit more actually.
Originally posted by Z28Wilson
I hear there's a car called Mustang you may have heard of....rumors from good sources persist about how powerful and light it will be, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see about that.
I hear there's a car called Mustang you may have heard of....rumors from good sources persist about how powerful and light it will be, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see about that.
07-06-2008, 01:28 PM
#323
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Location: Commerce, mi, USA
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You know what bugs me about stuff like this? If you really want to have a discussion about the SIXTH gen Camaro... why don't you start it over in the 'automotive news - advanced vehicle' section of this forum. I come to the 2010 Camaro section to read about the FIFTH gen Camaro. Not to see the likes of you going on about how you want a lighter car. The weight of the FIFTH gen is already set and cast. If you honestly just want to discuss curb weight of the SIXTH gen car... why don't you do it in the right forum section?
...Or maybe you have a different motive...
...Or maybe you have a different motive...
07-06-2008, 01:33 PM
#324
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You know what bugs me about stuff like this? If you really want to have a discussion about the SIXTH gen Camaro... why don't you start it over in the 'automotive news - advanced vehicle' section of this forum. I come to the 2010 Camaro section to read about the FIFTH gen Camaro. Not to see the likes of you going on about how you want a lighter car. The weight of the FIFTH gen is already set and cast. If you honestly just want to discuss curb weight of the SIXTH gen car... why don't you do it in the right forum section?
...Or maybe you have a different motive...
...Or maybe you have a different motive...
Here you go:
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...hlight=6th+gen
07-06-2008, 02:06 PM
#325
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Location: Commerce, mi, USA
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Well I do grant, that I overlooked that thread. And my apologies if you are annoyed. But you should try to understand, it's also troubling to members here, when you make statements like this:
Annoying... indeed.
The sad, sad, irony here, is that GM dictated that Camaro share an architecture with fullsized sedans in order to spread cost over several hundred thousand cars per year. But those sedans were cancelled, mainly because their heft would have adversly affected GM's CAFE numbers and consumer acceptance.
When all is said and done, Camaro essentially comes in, just as heavy as those cancelled sedans, with no other product to share costs with. Okay, maybe the DTS replacement might happen on Zeta, but that's it.
The result: Camaro is left holding about a quarter ton of excess baggage because it was yoked to a dead/dying large sedan architecture - a large sedan architecture, now with no sedans.
The money spent on Zeta, could have given Camaro it very own ponycar appropriate architecture. In fact, they might have even spun off a 'sensible for the times', fun-to-drive sedan or two from that. Hmmm. Something to think about.
I seriously doubt at this particular point in time, if a Zeta based Camaro is even all that economical to build for GM. Certainly, nowhere near the economies of scale projected for it. So, although GM no longer has the cost advantages of platform-sharing for Camaro, it does end up carrying the burden of all that weight as it's legacy.
When all is said and done, Camaro essentially comes in, just as heavy as those cancelled sedans, with no other product to share costs with. Okay, maybe the DTS replacement might happen on Zeta, but that's it.
The result: Camaro is left holding about a quarter ton of excess baggage because it was yoked to a dead/dying large sedan architecture - a large sedan architecture, now with no sedans.
The money spent on Zeta, could have given Camaro it very own ponycar appropriate architecture. In fact, they might have even spun off a 'sensible for the times', fun-to-drive sedan or two from that. Hmmm. Something to think about.
I seriously doubt at this particular point in time, if a Zeta based Camaro is even all that economical to build for GM. Certainly, nowhere near the economies of scale projected for it. So, although GM no longer has the cost advantages of platform-sharing for Camaro, it does end up carrying the burden of all that weight as it's legacy.
07-06-2008, 02:16 PM
#326
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Location: AR (PA born and fled)
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You know, I was ready with several educational oriented responses but I figured it'd be a waste of time. I'll simply leave with these thoughts directed only towards the handling portion of our program...
I know of no more relevant or easily accessible test of a car's agility and handling than stock class autocross competition. Much like most real world situations, the speeds generally don't exceed 70 mph and the surfaces are seldom perfect. Mods are extremely minimal. Wheel sizes must remain stock and the only allowable suspension/chassis modifications are shocks and a front bar (which most everyone in the class changes).
The current crop of Mustangs is laying waste to the Camaros and Firebirds (SS, WS6 cars included) despite still having something of a power deficit.
When the new Mustang was found to be a better choice than Camaro / Firebird, national level competitors went out and bought them in droves. The car now dominates the class. If the new Camaro really is going to shame lighter cars with it's handling prowess, we will see a widespread return to Camaro.
This will be an extremely fair test as the cars run at the same time and are driven by very motivated drivers under the same conditions. The top drivers are very consistent and comparable to each other at this level.
If the Mustang continues it's rampage through the class into the upcoming model change/freshening, I guess those concerned with weight were right.
If the Camaro becomes the car to have, I guess they were wrong.
We'll see soon enough. For the record, I'd love to be wrong.
I know of no more relevant or easily accessible test of a car's agility and handling than stock class autocross competition. Much like most real world situations, the speeds generally don't exceed 70 mph and the surfaces are seldom perfect. Mods are extremely minimal. Wheel sizes must remain stock and the only allowable suspension/chassis modifications are shocks and a front bar (which most everyone in the class changes).
The current crop of Mustangs is laying waste to the Camaros and Firebirds (SS, WS6 cars included) despite still having something of a power deficit.
When the new Mustang was found to be a better choice than Camaro / Firebird, national level competitors went out and bought them in droves. The car now dominates the class. If the new Camaro really is going to shame lighter cars with it's handling prowess, we will see a widespread return to Camaro.
This will be an extremely fair test as the cars run at the same time and are driven by very motivated drivers under the same conditions. The top drivers are very consistent and comparable to each other at this level.
If the Mustang continues it's rampage through the class into the upcoming model change/freshening, I guess those concerned with weight were right.
If the Camaro becomes the car to have, I guess they were wrong.
We'll see soon enough. For the record, I'd love to be wrong.
Last edited by Chewbacca; 07-06-2008 at 02:17 PM. Reason: clarity
07-06-2008, 02:34 PM
#327
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
You know, I was ready with several educational oriented responses but I figured it'd be a waste of time. I'll simply leave with these thoughts directed only towards the handling portion of our program...
I know of no more relevant or easily accessible test of a car's agility and handling than stock class autocross competition. Much like most real world situations, the speeds generally don't exceed 70 mph and the surfaces are seldom perfect. Mods are extremely minimal. Wheel sizes must remain stock and the only allowable suspension/chassis modifications are shocks and a front bar (which most everyone in the class changes).
The current crop of Mustangs is laying waste to the Camaros and Firebirds (SS, WS6 cars included) despite still having something of a power deficit.
When the new Mustang was found to be a better choice than Camaro / Firebird, national level competitors went out and bought them in droves. The car now dominates the class. If the new Camaro really is going to shame lighter cars with it's handling prowess, we will see a widespread return to Camaro.
This will be an extremely fair test as the cars run at the same time and are driven by very motivated drivers under the same conditions. The top drivers are very consistent and comparable to each other at this level.
If the Mustang continues it's rampage through the class into the upcoming model change/freshening, I guess those concerned with weight were right.
If the Camaro becomes the car to have, I guess they were wrong.
We'll see soon enough. For the record, I'd love to be wrong.
I know of no more relevant or easily accessible test of a car's agility and handling than stock class autocross competition. Much like most real world situations, the speeds generally don't exceed 70 mph and the surfaces are seldom perfect. Mods are extremely minimal. Wheel sizes must remain stock and the only allowable suspension/chassis modifications are shocks and a front bar (which most everyone in the class changes).
The current crop of Mustangs is laying waste to the Camaros and Firebirds (SS, WS6 cars included) despite still having something of a power deficit.
When the new Mustang was found to be a better choice than Camaro / Firebird, national level competitors went out and bought them in droves. The car now dominates the class. If the new Camaro really is going to shame lighter cars with it's handling prowess, we will see a widespread return to Camaro.
This will be an extremely fair test as the cars run at the same time and are driven by very motivated drivers under the same conditions. The top drivers are very consistent and comparable to each other at this level.
If the Mustang continues it's rampage through the class into the upcoming model change/freshening, I guess those concerned with weight were right.
If the Camaro becomes the car to have, I guess they were wrong.
We'll see soon enough. For the record, I'd love to be wrong.
Keep us posted.
07-06-2008, 02:41 PM
#328
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Better start that 6th gen thread, Guy.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=618435
As for the Camaro all but laying waste to the last gen CTSv, I layed out the reasoning and logic behind that.
Time will tell, but it's more than a safe bet.
07-06-2008, 08:25 PM
#329
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,870
Well I disagree. Camaro buyers have always known their back seat is going to be limited. It has always been a 'good' seat, for its known purposes and limitations. Only jaded and unrealistic consumers would expect otherwise. For its constraints (cost, vehicle size, performance, styling), it offers a lot of utility and can easily carry a couple small folks (like kids or teens, or a couple large dogs) in comfort. Anyone who often needs to carry two adults in the back shouldn't be buying a Camaro - it's not meant for them. That said, I believe a lot of buyers would welcome a little more room in the back. For me, I'd gladly have them boost the curb weight 100-200 lb, so my kids will continue to have plenty of legroom well into their teenage years.
I've provided proof that a usable back seat has been part of Camaro DNA for decades. Do you want to take a stab at providing proof to the contrary? Didn't think so.
I've provided proof that a usable back seat has been part of Camaro DNA for decades. Do you want to take a stab at providing proof to the contrary? Didn't think so.
. I get the feeling you just like to "disagree"
.Read my 2 posts again. Nowhere did i say that a camaro shouldn't have a back seat. What i'm against is the notion that it should have a large and roomy backseat because while a ton of rear leg/shoulder/head room and such would be a nice feature, it comes at a penalty (added size). I don't want the camaro to turn into the challenger (at 198" long its basically a 2 door sedan). The camaro's real purpose isn't to provide a lot of rear leg/head/shoulder space (that's what family sedans are for) & it sounds like you agree with me on that.
As for your liberal and generous use and interpretation of the term "good" to describe the camaro's backseats, to each his own. All semantics i guess. Some people consider the Ridgeline a "good" truck because it fulfills its limited intended usage, but i'd never use the term "good" to describe it. Same goes for the camaro's backseats...my opinion of course & we'll just agree to disagree on that
. Lastly, I know what the camaro's DNA is. A quote from my first post that you either skipped over or ignored. You'll note it sounds a lot like your definition.
From my experience, It's a 2+2 with the back 2 seats being suited more for smaller/shorter individuals.
07-06-2008, 08:44 PM
#330
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 61
This exposes a deep-seated bias by some Camaro fans, who will gladly believe rumors about how good the next Mustang will be (will it have 400 hp while weighing 3500 lb???), but also believe the rumors about how disappointing the next Camaro will be. This, without key specs released for either car yet, without knowing prices, features or quality/safety ratings, and incredibly, without even knowing what the Mustang looks like! But hey, whatever floats your boat
Fourcam and BlueOval, 2 well known Mustang Insiders who were responsible for giving us practically the entire blueprints for the GT500 in 2005 (2 years before the damned thing was announced) have let it "Slip" that the 2011 Mustang GT is going to be over 400+ hp (current estimates are putting it around 430 since it's believed the 400hp is underrated from Ford) with 360+ pounds of torque. It IS going to weigh below 3500. The only thing they haven't confirmed at this point is if it's going to be a Watts link SLA or a carryover from the S197.
But you know what's the worst part of this whole debacle, that part that's just really bizarre? The fact that Fourcam let it "slip" that the base V8 camaro was going be just under 2 tons 2 months before our very own camaro insiders "confirmed" that same figure.
So feel free to bury your head in the sand and pretend like the 2011 Mustang GT doesn't exist, it's going to make it that much easier to blow right by you.