An observation re: Camaro
02-10-2009, 03:11 PM
#16
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The point was that the Camaro, a car that GM would have never made if it waited a year, is going to do more for the company (and by reaction, will define a new GM more) than the car that's getting all the press.
I think the Cruze will be a straight out success, but it's production was never in doubt and didn't have nearly the resistence of the Camaro program or all the push of the Volt's.
When the issue is jobs in their district, then that's when you have their full attention.
Image cars are not typically volume cars. Image cars are the cars that people want or aspire to. That simply doesn't happen with a Focus, Fusion, Malibu, or Cobalt. Mustang & Camaro are image cars. So is Viper & Corvette. Solstice and the XLR (soon to be replaced with the CTS coupe).
Image cars (halo cars, aspirational cars... all the same) draw traffic into showrooms, and help sell other brands. You may go into a showroom and buy a Malibu LTZ, but in your mind you bought a car that shares a history with Corvettes. A Fusion buyer might have a different view of Ford if they never had a Mustang in the showroom.
Last edited by guionM; 02-10-2009 at 03:22 PM.
02-10-2009, 03:16 PM
#17
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this is a phase. the only good battery driven car out there that i have seen thus far is the Tesla roadster. as far as the volt and those cars, yeah they seem cool. but their not very practical at all. no one understands what happens when the battery's break or wear down. its not as simple or cheap to replace a entire set of car batteries like its a flash light. its going to have a "warranty" for a certain amount of time. then what? the warranties up and your paying out the *** for a new battery that cost you close to 10grand after all the labor and materials cost. these cars are a joke right now. very impractical and uselss after they would break down. no longer will you be able to just go in your garage and work on your car if you have a problem. youll have to call the dealer(becasue local mechanics sure dont know jack about battery oppereated cars) just to diagnose the problem and then you have to pay them to fix it. whatever it may be. there are so many things that can go wrong and WILL go wrong with these cars. just think, we are just now getting to a point in vehicle manufacturing where we dont have alot of "kinks" to work out. and gas powered motors have been around for decades! battery driven cars are a joke. im sorry thats the way i feel and im not buying into the "electric/hybrid" era. it will pass.
I'm sure GM has been performing extensive lifecycle testing on the Volt's powertrain and I'd guess it will be stone cold reliable.
The Prius technology was untested in the marketplace when it was introduced, but it's proved to be a very reliable car.
I'd guess the Volt will have at least a 100,000 mile Voltec powertrain warranty if not more.
Your points about service are certainly something to think about, though. Joe on the corner won't be fixing it!
02-10-2009, 03:31 PM
#18
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The Tesla to the Volt isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison since the Tesla has just batteries and no internal combustion engine at all. The Volt, in essence, carries its own battery charger.
I'm sure GM has been performing extensive lifecycle testing on the Volt's powertrain and I'd guess it will be stone cold reliable.
The Prius technology was untested in the marketplace when it was introduced, but it's proved to be a very reliable car.
I'd guess the Volt will have at least a 100,000 mile Voltec powertrain warranty if not more.
Your points about service are certainly something to think about, though. Joe on the corner won't be fixing it!
I'm sure GM has been performing extensive lifecycle testing on the Volt's powertrain and I'd guess it will be stone cold reliable.
The Prius technology was untested in the marketplace when it was introduced, but it's proved to be a very reliable car.
I'd guess the Volt will have at least a 100,000 mile Voltec powertrain warranty if not more.
Your points about service are certainly something to think about, though. Joe on the corner won't be fixing it!
02-10-2009, 03:37 PM
#19
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Nevermind, you're right. The Cruze is going to be Chevrolets image leader. High schoolers are going to be drawing it on their notebooks and daydreaming about the day that they, if they are incredibly lucky, might actually own a Cruze!
Just because it's the volume seller doesn't make it the image car. Cobalt was selling pretty well for a GM car up until recently, but do people asprire to own them, or buy them (as I did) because they are cheap, reliable transportation?
Just because it's the volume seller doesn't make it the image car. Cobalt was selling pretty well for a GM car up until recently, but do people asprire to own them, or buy them (as I did) because they are cheap, reliable transportation?
but highschool drawers don't make GM money either. right now GM needs profits and thats why the cruze is more important.
02-10-2009, 03:53 PM
#20
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Something like this should be on my Blog, but I want to throw this out for feedback.
GM is basically morgaging their entire existance on the Volt, a car that I personally feel is a White Elephant (facinating to look at, but does no good whatsoever). Perhaps even worse. The Volt is a car that is in the background of every GM brass interview. Volt is the car GM is toting as the future of the company, and the press GM is pushing for the Volt is incredible considering it's still about 1 1/2 to 2 years away.
But despite all this, GM is going to lose money on every Volt they produce. One would expect that with the full bore PR GM is doing with the Volt, GM wants to sell a gazillion of them when they come out. Fact is, the more Volts GM sells, the more it loses. GM know this. Production of the Volt at least the 1st few years will be extremely limited (only 10,000 will be made the 1st year). With a pricetag that is expected to be well between $35,000 (if it gets government tax breaks) to $40,000 (if it doesn't), the idea of limiting production may become as meaningless as CAFE standards when gas is $5 per gallon.
But yet, you have the Camaro. A car that generates enthusiasm and excitement at every showing (the latest as the Daytona 500 pace car). It's a car that GM would never have approved if it came along just 1 year later. It's a project that sat in GM's system for a decade, then was rammed through with a speed almost unheard of at GM without Federal regulations chomping at their collective butts. It is the sole survivor of a car line that was supposed to make GM a legitamate full line car maker again, putting it's cookie cutter image in the trash heap once and for all.
It's obvious that as long as the loan market thaws out, Camaro is going to be a smash hit. With Mustangs selling now selling at a 4K a month clip and Challengers running 2600+ monthly, even with the current credit market, the 5th gen Camaro is most likely going to have the best production year since '99... and if credit improves by spring, with pent up demand for new cars, Camaro will be riding a crest of new car buying.
With an extensive option and factory personalization list (which will send a Camaro SS well into Corvette pricing territory), GM is set up to make serious bank on the Camaro. Chrysler is making quite a bit on Challenger's extensive option list.
It's ironic that the car that GM would not have made (and in most circles wishes it hadn't) is not only going to outsell their darling (the Volt) by whopping margins, but is going to clear a comparative massive amount of money on each Camaro made (even base V6 Camaros have a thin profit margin built in, let alone loaded 2SS).
The Volt may start making GM money late in the decade, but what is GM to do until then? Today, General Motors Corperation would have been shuttered for over a month if the government hadn't released money to keep them afloat just days before New Years. The Volt isn't going to make a profit before 2015... if ever.
The irony is that the Camaro stands to do more to save GM (by actually bringing money into the company instead of bleeding it out) than the Volt, despite it's standing next to the Volt.
GM is basically morgaging their entire existance on the Volt, a car that I personally feel is a White Elephant (facinating to look at, but does no good whatsoever). Perhaps even worse. The Volt is a car that is in the background of every GM brass interview. Volt is the car GM is toting as the future of the company, and the press GM is pushing for the Volt is incredible considering it's still about 1 1/2 to 2 years away.
But despite all this, GM is going to lose money on every Volt they produce. One would expect that with the full bore PR GM is doing with the Volt, GM wants to sell a gazillion of them when they come out. Fact is, the more Volts GM sells, the more it loses. GM know this. Production of the Volt at least the 1st few years will be extremely limited (only 10,000 will be made the 1st year). With a pricetag that is expected to be well between $35,000 (if it gets government tax breaks) to $40,000 (if it doesn't), the idea of limiting production may become as meaningless as CAFE standards when gas is $5 per gallon.
But yet, you have the Camaro. A car that generates enthusiasm and excitement at every showing (the latest as the Daytona 500 pace car). It's a car that GM would never have approved if it came along just 1 year later. It's a project that sat in GM's system for a decade, then was rammed through with a speed almost unheard of at GM without Federal regulations chomping at their collective butts. It is the sole survivor of a car line that was supposed to make GM a legitamate full line car maker again, putting it's cookie cutter image in the trash heap once and for all.
It's obvious that as long as the loan market thaws out, Camaro is going to be a smash hit. With Mustangs selling now selling at a 4K a month clip and Challengers running 2600+ monthly, even with the current credit market, the 5th gen Camaro is most likely going to have the best production year since '99... and if credit improves by spring, with pent up demand for new cars, Camaro will be riding a crest of new car buying.
With an extensive option and factory personalization list (which will send a Camaro SS well into Corvette pricing territory), GM is set up to make serious bank on the Camaro. Chrysler is making quite a bit on Challenger's extensive option list.
It's ironic that the car that GM would not have made (and in most circles wishes it hadn't) is not only going to outsell their darling (the Volt) by whopping margins, but is going to clear a comparative massive amount of money on each Camaro made (even base V6 Camaros have a thin profit margin built in, let alone loaded 2SS).
The Volt may start making GM money late in the decade, but what is GM to do until then? Today, General Motors Corperation would have been shuttered for over a month if the government hadn't released money to keep them afloat just days before New Years. The Volt isn't going to make a profit before 2015... if ever.
The irony is that the Camaro stands to do more to save GM (by actually bringing money into the company instead of bleeding it out) than the Volt, despite it's standing next to the Volt.
02-10-2009, 03:54 PM
#21
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I'll be curious to see what the profit breakdown is on Cruze. My understanding is it was a loss on Cavalier and not much better on Cobalt. I've heard the Cobalt referred to as "profitable" but no exact figures.
Sharing Cruze with so many markets will probably help, but per car profit will still be lower than Camaro.
I'm not saying in any way, shape or form that the Cruze is not important, but I think if Camaro sells well, it can definitely add to the bottom line and could be a positive for Chevrolet/GM public image.
02-10-2009, 03:57 PM
#22
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And let's not forget why the Cruze is being built, it is solely for the purpose of fuel efficiency to help meet that ridiculous 2020 CAFE B.S.
02-10-2009, 04:03 PM
#23
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i know the tesla is not the same as the volt. yeah you get a 5yr 100k warranty. your good for 5 years. after that your on your own. the prius' have a 10 yr warranty i think. so your good for 10 yrs. as long as the warranty covers whatever issue it is that is wrong with your car. if it comes to replacing the batteries(around 7-10k) im sure they will be looking for something that you did to the car so they wont have to cover it under warranty. there will be so many restrictions on these car adn "little black box's" its going to be sick. they will look for any way to get out of paying for the new battery for you. yeah the people buying these cars are going to be paying around 35k for the car too. out the door close to 40k. when does your gas savings start? well not right away becasue your 40k in debt now. where as if you were to buy a car that gets 30+mpg on a regular gas motor, and you paid 15-20 k for it. your savings start way earlier than the volt or prius.
From what I've read, averaging things out, Prius pays off in about 4 years. Volt is an unknown right now and will probably vary considerably depending on how the owner uses one.
I agree totally that buying a Volt won't really be about cost savings. I think people who buy them will look at it as investing in new technologies.
02-10-2009, 04:06 PM
#24
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I won't have a Camaro this coming year, but I can guarantee there will be some in high school parking lots across the country. Not only are some parents who buy their kids brand new cars, but teens are a huge influence on their parents purchases as well.
I'll be curious to see what the profit breakdown is on Cruze. My understanding is it was a loss on Cavalier and not much better on Cobalt. I've heard the Cobalt referred to as "profitable" but no exact figures.
Sharing Cruze with so many markets will probably help, but per car profit will still be lower than Camaro.
I'm not saying in any way, shape or form that the Cruze is not important, but I think if Camaro sells well, it can definitely add to the bottom line and could be a positive for Chevrolet/GM public image.
I'll be curious to see what the profit breakdown is on Cruze. My understanding is it was a loss on Cavalier and not much better on Cobalt. I've heard the Cobalt referred to as "profitable" but no exact figures.
Sharing Cruze with so many markets will probably help, but per car profit will still be lower than Camaro.
I'm not saying in any way, shape or form that the Cruze is not important, but I think if Camaro sells well, it can definitely add to the bottom line and could be a positive for Chevrolet/GM public image.
02-10-2009, 04:21 PM
#25
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Actually, the last we heard, GM was talking about a separate lease/warranty on the battery packs. You could purchase the car, then lease the battery packs. After 5 years (tbd), you'd replace the battery pack and then enter into a new lease/warranty on the replacement.
02-10-2009, 04:34 PM
#26
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...GM is basically morgaging their entire existance on the Volt, a car that I personally feel is a White Elephant (facinating to look at, but does no good whatsoever). Perhaps even worse. The Volt is a car that is in the background of every GM brass interview. Volt is the car GM is toting as the future of the company, and the press GM is pushing for the Volt is incredible considering it's still about 1 1/2 to 2 years away.
But despite all this, GM is going to lose money on every Volt they produce. One would expect that with the full bore PR GM is doing with the Volt, GM wants to sell a gazillion of them when they come out...
...The irony is that the Camaro stands to do more to save GM (by actually bringing money into the company instead of bleeding it out) than the Volt, despite it's standing next to the Volt.
But despite all this, GM is going to lose money on every Volt they produce. One would expect that with the full bore PR GM is doing with the Volt, GM wants to sell a gazillion of them when they come out...
...The irony is that the Camaro stands to do more to save GM (by actually bringing money into the company instead of bleeding it out) than the Volt, despite it's standing next to the Volt.
Therefore they are playing it smart. Pushing cars like the Volt, Cruze and Beat as the future of GM, while they downplay cars like the Camaro and delaying a car like the CTS Coupe. Once the Camaros hit the showroom floors and start selling like crazy, then GM will feel relaxed to tell Washington, “look, the American buyer wants Camaro” and it will be easier to sell a 400+hp musclecar to the Feds when the American consumers are gobbling them up. Then they can highlight the Camaro while maintaining the line that cars like Volt, Cruze and Beat are the future of GM, however the Camaro will help pave the way to get there.
02-10-2009, 05:23 PM
#27
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Everyone is missing the politics angle. There are two critical deadlines in the coming weeks, February 17 and March 31. If GM cannot convince Washington they are on the right track, they’ll have to pay back the loan and won’t get any future funding. In other words, GM will be dead.
Therefore they are playing it smart. Pushing cars like the Volt, Cruze and Beat as the future of GM, while they downplay cars like the Camaro and delaying a car like the CTS Coupe. Once the Camaros hit the showroom floors and start selling like crazy, then GM will feel relaxed to tell Washington, “look, the American buyer wants Camaro” and it will be easier to sell a 400+hp musclecar to the Feds when the American consumers are gobbling them up. Then they can highlight the Camaro while maintaining the line that cars like Volt, Cruze and Beat are the future of GM, however the Camaro will help pave the way to get there.
Therefore they are playing it smart. Pushing cars like the Volt, Cruze and Beat as the future of GM, while they downplay cars like the Camaro and delaying a car like the CTS Coupe. Once the Camaros hit the showroom floors and start selling like crazy, then GM will feel relaxed to tell Washington, “look, the American buyer wants Camaro” and it will be easier to sell a 400+hp musclecar to the Feds when the American consumers are gobbling them up. Then they can highlight the Camaro while maintaining the line that cars like Volt, Cruze and Beat are the future of GM, however the Camaro will help pave the way to get there.
Kind of like our presidents choice in cars. When no one was looking, he had a Hemi powered 300C. When that became a political liability, he bought a hybrid. You buy what you want when left to your own devices, but when everyone's looking, you get what you're expected to get. So GM may have to play the green card for now, but if the public clearly shows that it wants muscle, they will oblige.
Besides, who in their right mind would spend 40 grand on a midsized car when you could buy a much more practical Malibu for 15-20k less? That buys a lot of gas, even at $5/gal.
Last edited by CLEAN; 02-10-2009 at 05:26 PM.
02-10-2009, 08:44 PM
#28
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GM is borrowing money, they have to prove that they are taking steps to improve.
So for now the Volt is a dog and pony show.
It's a great car, but the battery technology just isn't there yet at an affordable price.
If gas prices go up again, and they will, the Volt is more of a deal.
I really think we should have the Volt though for 3 reasons:
1. It keeps GM and other companies working on the technology.
2. The more Volts that are sold, the better the corporate average fuel economy rating is for CAFE, thus keeping the V8 Camaro around longer.
3. The more Volts and economy cars that are sold, the more gas will be around for our Camaros in the future.
So for now the Volt is a dog and pony show.
It's a great car, but the battery technology just isn't there yet at an affordable price.
If gas prices go up again, and they will, the Volt is more of a deal.
I really think we should have the Volt though for 3 reasons:
1. It keeps GM and other companies working on the technology.
2. The more Volts that are sold, the better the corporate average fuel economy rating is for CAFE, thus keeping the V8 Camaro around longer.
3. The more Volts and economy cars that are sold, the more gas will be around for our Camaros in the future.
02-11-2009, 07:14 AM
#29
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GMs current Hybrid Component warranty on their current hybrids is 8 years/100,000 miles, which is the same as the Prius and other Toyota hybrids. So, I'd assume Volt will get the same treatment.
From what I've read, averaging things out, Prius pays off in about 4 years. Volt is an unknown right now and will probably vary considerably depending on how the owner uses one.
I agree totally that buying a Volt won't really be about cost savings. I think people who buy them will look at it as investing in new technologies.
From what I've read, averaging things out, Prius pays off in about 4 years. Volt is an unknown right now and will probably vary considerably depending on how the owner uses one.
I agree totally that buying a Volt won't really be about cost savings. I think people who buy them will look at it as investing in new technologies.
compare this car to a new silverado which gets the best gas mileage of all the trucks. how much willa base truck cost? 20grand,now with all the discount. maybe thats a little high for a base with incentives. but still its 20 grand cheaper than the volt. now with this truck you have so much more capability than with the volt becasue of the towing/hauling aspect. seating 3-6 people depending if its ext. cab or not. compared to the volts 5 seats and very small trunk. where as the silverado has a very large bed. now with gas savings you are saving right away because you dont have as much $ into the silverado as you do the volt. and granted the volt gets 40miles with 0 gas, the silverado is getting 18-20mpg. and the silverado cost your home electric bill 0 dollars to "charge" at night. by the time the volt catches up to the silverado in"getting its moneys worth", the volt is going to need those batteries replaced. no way is there a 4 year payoff in the volt. you may pay the loan off in 4 years but you will not get your investment out of it in gas in 4 years.
02-11-2009, 07:18 AM
#30
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Everyone is missing the politics angle. There are two critical deadlines in the coming weeks, February 17 and March 31. If GM cannot convince Washington they are on the right track, they’ll have to pay back the loan and won’t get any future funding. In other words, GM will be dead.
Therefore they are playing it smart. Pushing cars like the Volt, Cruze and Beat as the future of GM, while they downplay cars like the Camaro and delaying a car like the CTS Coupe. Once the Camaros hit the showroom floors and start selling like crazy, then GM will feel relaxed to tell Washington, “look, the American buyer wants Camaro” and it will be easier to sell a 400+hp musclecar to the Feds when the American consumers are gobbling them up. Then they can highlight the Camaro while maintaining the line that cars like Volt, Cruze and Beat are the future of GM, however the Camaro will help pave the way to get there.
Therefore they are playing it smart. Pushing cars like the Volt, Cruze and Beat as the future of GM, while they downplay cars like the Camaro and delaying a car like the CTS Coupe. Once the Camaros hit the showroom floors and start selling like crazy, then GM will feel relaxed to tell Washington, “look, the American buyer wants Camaro” and it will be easier to sell a 400+hp musclecar to the Feds when the American consumers are gobbling them up. Then they can highlight the Camaro while maintaining the line that cars like Volt, Cruze and Beat are the future of GM, however the Camaro will help pave the way to get there.
