While some may call the 300 a baby Bentley, they are not in competition with each other for buyers.

Price is one of the reasons why those who do/would buy a G35 or a 3 would most likely not buy a Camaro which means, those vehicles are not really a competitor for the Camaro.

Those people may look at a Camaro (doubtful but they may) but if they have the money to buy the G35 or the 3, that's very likely what they are going to buy.

 

I disagree, maybe with the 4th gen but the new Camaro is going to be world class and will line up with the G35 and 3 series.

 

The question was not how "well" the Camaro "lines up" with other cars...the question posed in the thread was who are the "New Camaro's REAL competitors?" which means, what buyers would buy the new Camaro who otherwise might have purchased a G35 or 3 series.

If you want to turn it into a "my car is better than your car" argument then feel free but my point, which seems to be getting lost, is that people who buy G35s or BMW 3s buy those cars for reasons that are just not the SAME as the reasons peple buy a Camaro.

Scott S. has said many times that Chevy knows that people who buy Camaro/Firebird...

1. want to be SEEN, and
2. Want to go so fast their hair catches on fire

I believe there is one or two other things he always included but they escape me at the moment.

If Scott is right, and I tend to believe he is, then I would submit to you that neither the G35 nor the BMW 3 series would appeal to people who "want to be SEEN" or who want to go so fast their hair catches on fire and I say that while in no way taking anything "away" from either of the three cars.

The Camaro could be the greatest car ever put out by GM but that does not automatically mean that it is going to "compete" with the same potential buyers who buy G35s and BMW 3s because those buyers buy them for different reasons.

That aside, if you really want to make this an assessment of how well the Camaro will "line up" with the G35 or 3 series then you probably need to consider a couple more things...

The G35 (for sure) and the 3 (probably) will have all new designs by the time the new Camaro hits the showroom (unless GM is much, much further ahead than is generally believed) so it isn't quite fair to compare the future Camaro to cars who's design is not nearly as new.

Also, you probably should throw the 450Z and perhaps the Skyline GRT into the mix as wel because if you think G35 or 3 series buyers also buy Camaros then I would say 450Z/GTR buyers would as well..

 

I think the clinic drawings are wishful thinking.

There's no doubt who will have the horsepower trophy between Camaro, BMW and G35.

But that's where the competition stops. Frankly, GM is incapable of building something as refined as the M3 or G35. GM has had 20 year to try and make a better Camry and Accord, but they have yet to do so. Ford competed for a while with those two, but came up short over the last decade.

If GM *TRULY* wants to compete against the G35/M3, they're going to have to build a car like they haven't done in decades. And starting at $20k, I highly doubt it.

Don't get me wrong - I love the Camaro and would take one over the other two. But that's just because I am an enthusiast. G35 and M3 are in their own class.

I think its best if GM keeps Mustang and Challenger in their sites...there they can compete and win.

 

To GM's credit . I dont think present day GM can be compared to the past , I really think the newest models coming out including the Camaro will prove that . A few years , I would said ....man , what cool concept , but they'll surely blow the production model . I dont think that this time around . The Corvette re-invented itself in 97 with the C5 . I think the new Camaro's will redefine themselves in am even more dramatic way than the C5 did . I think it will be car like GM hasnt built in decades .

About the 3 series . I dont think it was on the wall in GM's studio as direct competitor , I think/hope they are interested in whats between the 2 front wheels , and no Im not talking about the engine

 

Who cares...those are concepts we have yet to see any REAL/TRUE specs come from GM or DCM about what these cars will have and such.

 

I think there will be some cross shopping and a few conquest by Chevy. Papers were full of articles about how Chrysler dealers were having used Accords, Camrys and even a few Lexus models pile up on there lots because of all the trade ins.

Whether or not they are willing to admit it. Americans want to drive American cars, by virtue of them being American. As a country we have never outgrown roaring engines or big overstyled land yachts, and if GM/Ford/DCX produces those at a similiar price point and similiar quality to imports they will begin gain some of the ground they have lost.

 

I agree what grey nate and others on the market of the camaro. GM market is different from the G35 and 3 series. If GM planning to beat these cars pound from pound then yes the Camaro would cost a bit more. If GM looking to compete against those cars then thats is were the SS comes in place. We all know the SS would cost near the same as these car (since the Cobra is way out of its league). That would be a good market for the SS since it stand alone in its diversion. A car like that would make you feel good about having a v8 out perform its rivals in every category not just torque and horsepower.

 

I do recall Lutz saying this on the Camaro concept: "this car will run with the best of the best". I think he meant exactly that. What the Camaros' competitors are is largely relative, contingent on the buyer and what they'll be in the market for;What cars they will be looking at? You may be able to pigeon hole people and cars, but as we all know stereotypes don't hold true. Don't get flustered, it's the truth.

 

your opinion wasnt lost on me, it just wasnt shared. I totaly disagree. BMW 3 series USED TO BE something that would not cross shop with Camaro because it seemed to not be looked at that way in GM till this concept. It only makes sense to take your 4 seater sports car and target the best. I agree that BMW die hards that need all the gadets and widgets will not buy anything else but a BMW. To the average enthusiast who likes the looks power and handeling of BMW will surely consider Camaro LS2 IRS Z28 if the quality is good and performance is close. If a more direct high dollar Competition car is needed, then a high end Camaro, or a Caddy version could be done easy.

BMW owners dont want to be seen in their BMWs that they brag about? They dont want to go so fast their hair catches on fire in their M3's? I worked with a guy who had an M3 where he took the rear seat out to run high 12's. This is a joke right? Then why do car mags like to compare the M3 and the Vette? They always start out by saying its not a perfect comparison because the vette is a two seater and the M3 is a 4 with a trunk but they couldnt resist. Guess what, Camaro is 4 and it can fit the bill perfectly. Especially if you targeted them from the ground up as competition.

Again I couldnt disagree more. I dont have to tell anyone here, GM puts out the Z06, and even Motor Trend puts in on the cover with the Caption "Sell the Ferrari!" What gives you the idea Camaro if done right couldnt get the same reaction? "Sell the BMW!" There is NO reason GM couldnt achive this.

What do you mean not nearly as new? BMW's redesign strictly speaking from a design stand point, Ill bet will have 4 front headlights and a split grille 4 seater front engine formula its had for decades. Same with Porsche keeping their visual design ques since the second World War. BTW I definately throw the 350Z in the mix of Z28 competitors, but because its 2 seater its not direct which is why G35 makes more sense. Especially because the cars seem to lean toward import muscle like the Supra did. Im assuming 450Z is the next one. I can see it pulling Skyline fans, but its not here yet, so the only Skyline fans here now are diehard ricers.

There seems to be a common misconception that something is not possible because of how things were last perceived. The Z06 has beat up on Viper and is often compared to the GT at 2-3 the price. This seems to be written off as a fluke that GM cant repeat with another car because that is the way things are right now. It is absoloutely rediculous. The Camaro is a 4 seater front engine rear drive car, which seems now closer to BMW. The only thing stopping this from being a head to head is Camaro is an every mans car where as BMW is refined sports car. I am saying the guy who dreamed of the beamer he couldnt aford might take some level of Camaro. Like I said, there is always top level LS2 Z28, or LS7 ZL1 comp and there could always be a Caddy version for direct head to head.

 

I disagree with you here buddy. Perhaps the old GM would not but GM has alot riding on this car and I have a feeling it will be very comparable. Not to say the G35 and the M3 series are gods either. I havent been in a new M3 but several friends of mine own G35's and I gotta say, while being a nice car, it is hardly what I would call "untouchable".

 

:blah: I don't think so. I agree that the $20-$30k Camaro would not be a direct competitor to an M3 (or even a 330i) or G35 (which is not even CLOSE to an M3, but competes with the regular 330i, CTS, C-Class, etc.). As for not being capable of building a car as refined as the G35 or M3, I say that is nonsense. I've driven a CTS and a G35 back to back. I would say the CTS was more refined overall (though the G35 had warped brake rotors, which hurt the overall ambience). Neither car has the best looking dashboard ever, but the G35's interior really seemed pretty cheap. The CTS was easily at/above its level overall; a more expensive STS would blow it away (I know, it competes more with the M30/M45, but you said GM is incapable of reaching the level of a G35). I would bet that a DTS or Lucerne is even more "refined" than the G35. The G35 has been praised for its good handiling and strong power and very attractive price, but not so much for being the refinement leader in the category.

 

5thgen69camaro,

You seem to want to make this an issue of how “good” the Camaro will (hopefully) be. Frankly, I think that’s a red hearing.

I’m sure; at least I hope that the overall quality of the Camaro will be good. Will it be up to the standards of even the least expensive BMW? I highly doubt it. As to the G35, I happen to like the G35’s interior but whether it’s “as good” as a 3 series I would say no. Personal opinion aside, based on experience with my 2000 Z/28, I can say with certainty that after twelve months of service, the interior of my Z/28 did not hold up nearly as well as has the interior of my 350Z (which is almost identical to the G35’s interior).

Anyway, we aren’t really talking about how good Chevrolet CAN make the Camaro (or how “good” GM can make any car)…we have to deal with how good Chevy WILL make it.

We are, after all, talking about Chevrolet…could Chevy build a car of the quality of any BMW or any Porsche…yes. Will it or can it “afford to”…absolutely not. Chevy builds cars that average people can afford because they want to be able to sell a lot of them. That means that when you get to the details, compromises have to be made and price of components and raw materials have to be considered. Perhaps that’s why, after less than a year of service, the leather seat in my Z/28 had already started to crack and loose pigment while my 350Z shows no such wear.

Is the base Corvette, not to mention the ZO6 a great performance car….absolutely. Is the ZO6 equal to or even better in some or even many performance categories than some cars costing 2, 3 or 4 times as much or more…yes. Does that mean that someone would decide to buy a ZO6 INSTEAD of, say, a Porsche Carrera GT (assuming the could afford either of the vehicles)? While I have no buyer’s survey data to support my opinion, I very much doubt the potential Carrera GT buyer would very often opt for the ZO6 instead; he might buy both but I doubt he would only buy the ZO6 if he could afford to buy the Carerra GT.

And let’s do remember we are really talking about “groups” of people; there are always some who don’t follow the trends of the group.

If then, we, as I believe we are, talking about what groups will buy a new Camaro RATHER THAN something else then I say, the buyer groups for a Camaro are different people than the buyer groups who might buy a G35 and certainly different than those who buy a BMW 3. Quality, real or perceived is a factor but price, while far from the only reason, is a very significant one.

Lets look at prices of some high performance sports/sporty cars currently in production:
Porsche Carrera GT at $440,000
Porsche 911 (Various models): $71,300 - $97,100
Corvette ZO6: $65,690
Porsche Boxster: $46,000 – $54,700
BMW M3: $48,900 – $81,200
BMW 3 Coupe: $32,300 - $44,900
G35 Coupe: $33,200 - $33,800
350Z: $27,680 - $40,000
Mustang: $19,800 - $26,995

I would suggest that if the Camaro were being produced toady, it had better be priced no more than the current 350Z or Chevrolet will price itself totally out of its market.

That aside, I say it’s inappropriate to try and compare the Camaro that we may see as an 2009 or 2010 model just to cars that are already on the street. For one thing, anything already on the street, even if it were introduced this year was designed two, three or four years ago; and no, I’m not simply talking about “looks” or how many headlights it has… I’m talking about the overall vehicle and the total of its technology/parts.

I think the Camaro’s only true competition, as it has always been, is going to be the Mustang. The 450Z will be somewhat a competitor but I think even it will be a bit too pricy for most Camaro buyers and I would suggest that any Infiniti or BMW are well outside of the price point the Camaro needs to sell for. The Challenger may be a competitor but who knows how much it might sell for or how many they actually plan to sell.

Another thing to consider, BMW in total (including the Mini) sells around 300,000 cars a year (in the USA)…Camaro is going to have to attract far more than just BMW 3 series sales if they want to last more than a year or two.

BEING SEEN:
Of course those who buy BMWs want to bee seen but the appeal is entirely different. Rightly or wrongly, Camaro/Firebird has been seen as obvious, garish, brutish, raw, un-cultured, unbalanced (emphasis on RWH rather than total performance) entry-level performance cars…BMWs/Infinities are generally perceived as refined, understated, balanced (a total performance package) and more “upper crust” performance/luxury cars.

It may be true that the person who buys a Z/28 and the person who buys an M3 are equally interested in performance; but that does not mean they both want to be “seen” in the same way.

 

I don't think the 3 series is untouchable either, but with what's out there today, their only real competition as I see it, is from Caddy and Benz C class. Personally, I don't think Volvo and Audi have anything of real competition in this arena, but they're still considered competitors.

With that said, when is the last time you've mentioned Camaro, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Cadillac and Mercedes Benz in the same sentence?

Its like the old Sesame Street game: "One of these things doesn't go with the other, one of these things just doesn't belong". In the above list, Camaro is clearly that choice.

Now here's a big fat interesting question: Is GM possibly trying to get into that segment with the Camaro? Because if they are, then they're going to have to build one hell of a machine. And if they do, GM will have hit the ball out of the park because with one car they can wipe out the Mustang and Challenger, as well as compete and take market share from the "high-end" sport class.

With GM's past and current decisions, I don't see that happening though. For every good decision GM makes, they follow it up with 3 disastrous ones.

 

I don't think the 3 series is untouchable either, but with what's out there today, their only real competition as I see it, is from Caddy and Benz C class. Personally, I don't think Volvo and Audi have anything of real competition in this arena, but they're still considered competitors.

With that said, when is the last time you've mentioned Camaro, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Cadillac and Mercedes Benz in the same sentence?

Its like the old Sesame Street game: "One of these things doesn't go with the other, one of these things just doesn't belong". In the above list, Camaro is clearly that choice.

Now here's a big fat interesting question: Is GM possibly trying to get into that segment with the Camaro? Because if they are, then they're going to have to build one hell of a machine. And if they do, GM will have hit the ball out of the park because with one car they can wipe out the Mustang and Challenger, as well as compete and take market share from the "high-end" sport class.

With GM's past and current decisions, I don't see that happening though. For every good decision GM makes, they follow it up with 3 disastrous ones.