1. Was replying to a charge that I'm anti-Firebird.
2. I complimented you on the pic.
3. I'd still say GTO...... damn it!

 

lol

 

Wait wait wait... lemme get this straight... New CAMARO concept + front end OBVIOUSLY from a 2nd gen Firebird = blantant GTO???

Well, either way... looks great... if you want to call that GTO, then OK.

However, if that were to be the new GTO... then GM needs to be smacked for not just sucking it up and naming it Firebird.

Needs much more GTO IMHO if they're going to try to go that retro with it (beyond just the size). Why make it a retro 2nd gen and name it GTO?

 

sucking it up and calling it a firebird??? tell me why?
GTO is the Pontiac of now not a few years ago like GuionM just stated.
as stated above Firebird has no place in Pontiac in the 21st century right now.

 

As I said... if it ends up being that obvious that it was more inspired from a 2nd gen FIREBIRD then why not call it that?

Also as I said, GTO is fine... but don't you agree that it should have more GTO to it?

I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND Firebird has no place right now in the eyes of GM. My point if you reread my post is that THIS PICTURE looks too Firebird to be a GTO.

Anytime someone even mentions "Firebird" everyone jumps up and down screaming, "THERE IS NO FIREBIRD COMING!!!!". We know there isn't, we've read it on here in about 10,000 posts. I got it. That's NOT what I was saying.

 

Ill admit thats a nice "should be a firebird" drawing and yea GM should use that if they make it. But they said no so oh well Ill still be buying my Camaro anyways.

 

gotcha..I never said this photochop is more GTO thats the other guy..but it does look firebird..but Im sure like I posted ..lets get GTO cues in there and come up with a GTO more than a firebird

 

How many Camaros did they sell in 02? How many v6 Camaros did they sell? I don't understand what your point is for trying to bring up the Firebird's dismal 02 sales figures, when the Camaro's weren't that great either. Obviously GM knows they have a hit on their hands, and they can project 100,000 buyers because they have an understanding of how successful it might be. If a Firebird concept was made, and was a sweeping success, I am sure it's hypothesised sale figures would be much higher than it's final 02 sales. Perhaps there isn't a place for the Firebird at GM, but I don't really think the 02 sales can be used to make or break that case for it, considering the Camaro's sales.

 

It is kinda interesting how many more guesses there are as to what a good Firebird would look like instead of a GTO when we pretty much know for certain the 'Bird is dead.

I know it wasn't you calling the photochop GTOish... still trying to figure out where Guy sees GTO over Firebird.

Anyways... Red your cars look good... how about that GTO? I'd love to see a few different years molded into a longer/wider Camaro.

 

amazing! ive always liked camaros more, but if they made something like that..... ill have one first day i could!

 

Simple..Camaro sales were what double that of firebird sales the last few years of production..
The reason why..More Chevy dealers..more cars sold.
This car is a make or break car for GM it has to do beyond well, if its like the the last 02 in sales GM is in trouble..Pontiac and or Firebird could not sell the way a Chevy or Camaro could..If Pontiac was GM's value brand yes I could see a car..But I think GTO and Solstice right now give Pontiac a great performance lineup for RWD..IF GM is doing good in the next few years I could see a possible Firebird comming back but only if GM is truley out of the red.

 

+1 on the chop with the shaker and screaming chicken!

 

Nearly 25,000 B4Cs, Z28s, and SS and about 17,000 V6s.

Want comparisons?

Firebird Formula: 901
Camaro Z28: 13,031
Camaro B4C: 583

Trans Am & Formula coupes combined: 4863 (compare this to Z28's numbers)



Firebird Ram Air: 14,908
Camaro SS: 11,191

LS1 Firebirds: 20,769
LS1 Camaros: 24,805

V6 Firebirds: 9800
V6 Camaros: 16,972

Regardless as to how Camaro did, there is a very obvious pattern here. And it's not favorable to a new F-body Firebird.


Recapping what I previously posted:

1. Firebird buyers bought top line cars, mostly around or above the $30,000 mark.

2. Low and mid price Firebirds didn't sell.... they were even far worse than V6 Camaros... if that's possible!

3. A case can't be made for a "Firebird" line with those numbers.

4. The numbers make a STRONG case for a premium GTO-type vehicle around $30,000 over a return to the Firebird name.

5. GTOs are outselling same price Firebirds.

6. If you can't sell V6 Firebirds, or "affordable" performance Firebirds, the focus of those type of cars are naturally going to go to Chevrolet exclusively because it's both cost effective and the facts support it.

7. If the only Firebirds you're selling are top line models, and the figures show that even an underappriciated GTO is hammering the Ram Air in sales, it goes to figure that a GTO with a more agressive exterior will sell even far more, while a "Super Camaro would take any buyers who want a top drawer, outrageous "Pony Car".


Like I and others here have said, and as Scott chimed in, and as Bob Lutz has said, as well as Lynn Myers, John Larson, and others in various ways have said in so many words, there simply isn't a reasonable business case for the Firebird. Regardless as to how many Car rags try to stir up hope (and magazine sales), or how many high schoolers post contrary info on the internet, or how often someone points to the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice (....even the Saturn Sky will grossly outsell the Formula/Trans Am while the Solstice will grossly outsell the Ram Air Birds), it isn't going to change anything.

Everything sounds reasonable and possible on the internet, or might feel like an original idea of viewpoint. But pretty much everything idea and viewpoint has been thought of already, and the passion of some here for the Firebird name isn't enough to even get into a meeting without favorable numbers or profitability as part of your presentation.

The market that bought Firebirds aree going to be adsorbed by both the GTO and the so-called "Super Camaro". The total number of bitter holdouts for the Firebird name aren't enough to hold a decent softball game. Yet GM is going to save a ton of money on marketing, development, & design , while having more money to pump into the Camaro.



The only hope of Firebird ever returning (short of an sudden dramatic explosion of the coupe market) is as a profitable, low volume, performance car. Because most Firebird fans are thinking of a 4th gen, Corvette looking, Ram Air version, the only possibility on the horizon is not a Camaro derivitive, but something off of Kappa-Corvette components.



Sales figures for 2002 F-bodies:
http://www.doodnet.com/mfba/02production.htm
https://www.camaroz28.com/articles/0...rs/index.shtml

 

So no business case for a car that sold 30k units with almost no advertising? Your arguments assume that GM would market a new Firebird the way they did the old one.

No business case for a car that you admitted sold well when it was an upscale and higher priced version of the camaro in content and features?

Seems to me there is a strong business case to sell a higher content/priced version of a car you are already making.

 

Yea GTO...