Doug Harden

Ace,

Put away the rope, it's not that bad....

I know you're upset w/ me that I've taken to task the efforts for the rumored new Z/28 over the mis-guided notion that what this model needs is an obscene infusion of horsepower via a heavy supercharger....versus fixing, yes fixing the handling that has been a sore spot and even worse in nearly all of the magzine reviews, some by actual race car drivers. I have to tell you, when I read the Automobile Article (I've referred to a few times on here) I was extremely disappointed and PO'd.

Even in this track comparison, it's obvious power is not the car's weakness.

Tell me this, and I'm sure others may want to learn.......with John's input on the setup and selection of the handling components, how did we end up with a car that is so routinely berated for its massive understeer? This includes everything from spring and shock rates, roll bar sizing to tire sizes. I know a certian amount of understeer is 'designed in' to keep those with a lack of talent from going into the woods during spirited driving, but dayum let's dial it back, Nkay?

Also, with a car that is known to be purchased by enthusiasts and driven in many types of competition, how is it possible that there is no provision for adjusting the camber?

Obviously, there are many compromises made during design and production, but it's also obvious, something went too far or not far enough, depending on your viewpoint.

One last note for now....the debate between Jason and myself is a great exercise between two friends with differing opinions trying to come to an understanding...nothing more....nothing less. We'd expect nothing less of each other....both of our passions for this car run deep and I'd guess we'd both be happier with the result we'd hoped we had seen....no rope needed

jg95z28

I don't disagree with what you're saying, as a generalization for most drivers. However for me it is a little different. I typically don't drive my performance cars as daily drivers. If I take them out its as a purposeful trip to enjoy the drive. Therefore I'm not driving them in situations where a dog or a kid is likely to jump out in front of me or someone is going to suddenly change lanes and cut me off. Granted, on those "drives" I'm not accelerating as one would on a road course, however the situation is typically much more road course-like.

With my daily driver, I tend to drive under the limit and am constantly thinking three steps ahead. My wife says I drive like an old woman, but I guess that comes from driving lumber trucks when I was in my early twenties... those things don't stop on a dime and people typically tailgate you. Hmmm, perhaps I could pick-up some skills with my daily driver on an autocross course though... not that I'd be that efficient with a two-ton Tahoe. "Cones? What cones?"

Mich84

Uh...was it tuned at the Nurburgring or tried for mass murder after WWII?

99SilverSS

TO me the Camaro SS did about what was expected. I know we live in a world of instant gratification but the Camaro is brand new. Even the current Z06 needed refinement to get the best out of it. Look at where it was in 2006 and where it is now.

We all know the Zeta story and for better or worse but this is really the first production coupe that has spawned from it and was jointly developed on two continents by a corporation going bankrupt. I think there is room for improvement and I have no doubt it will happen.

I see the CTS-V as proof that GM does know what they are doing when they have time and money to develop a performance first package. And maybe the this Camaro will never be an Auto X ace but its showing that it can be a sales leader. Either way I just think it's premature to write off this Camaro in its first year handling performance wise.

PacerX

The two are not mutually exclusive.

GM needs to be doing both.

Fix the handling and add more power.



And there's the third thing.

I hope the Gen 6 Camaro is proceeding nicely through the design and engineering phases...







.

JakeRobb

Because there are no changes to the CTS-V for 2010. They tested it in 2008; it ran a 3:04.0. Each year, they only bring new or significantly changed cars -- there's no reason to re-test a car that hasn't changed, especially when you're working with limits on your time on track (I'm sure they pay out the nose to rent the track for a couple days) and on space in the magazine.

A road course like VIR is a reliable indicator of a car's overall performance, because it balances all of the various aspects. A good lap at VIR requires good brakes, good handling, and good acceleration. If you're short on any one of those, it will show in the overall lap time.

As I was saying above, it's the great motor, phenomenal brakes, and the good (not great) handling that make it fast. If the Camaro really handled "like poop", there's no way it could have gotten that time! There are 25 turns at VIR (29 if you count the ones like "5a" separately). Take a 1965 Galaxie 500, give it brakes that stop from 60 in 100 feet and never fade, and enough power to match the Camaro's power to weight ratio (that would take about 500hp). You think it's going to match Camaro's lap time? Of course not, because a '65 Galaxie really does handle like poop. The Camaro doesn't.

You guys have to learn to see shades of gray. "Not perfect" is not the same as "like poop".

Just because there is room for improvement doesn't mean that the existing product isn't good, and praiseworthy. As pointed out earlier, the Camaro was only beaten by cars costing significantly more, and it beat several cars costing less. A lot of people have a lot of good things to say about it. It's a good car.

It is not the best handler in the world, and while I'm sure most of us (if not all of us) would like it to be, that doesn't mean it isn't a good handler.

The "cheerleaders" speak up in defense of those who call it disparaging names that aren't entirely deserved.

Hypothetically, let's make a list of all mass-produced cars currently on sale in the U.S., sorted by handling prowess (let's say, a composite score based on autocross, road course, lane change, and figure eight performances). Let's exclude anything that costs more than $100,000 or sells fewer than 10,000 cars per year. Where do you think Camaro would land on that list?

The point here is that, while not as good as we'd like it to be, Camaro's handling is much, much better than you guys let on.

Beat me to it.

For those that don't get the joke, the track is called the Nurburgring. Nuremburg is an entirely different place, also in Germany, which is famous for being the location of the trials in which the ***** were charged with mass murder.

Fbodfather

Simply put -- a 'performance handling' package.........

If you think about it -- one thing that kept coming back over and over again (from our owners and enthusiasts) was that we needed to improve the refinement of the next gen Camaro........and that's what we addressed.

I think you'd agree that just about everyone else can agree that the new Camaro must appeal to a wider audience --there were just too many things about the 4th gen that took the car off the shopping list very quickly........

Had we not had a housing crisis/credit meltdown/chapter 11/turntheworldupsidedownkindaevent -- I think you'd have seen (by now) some other 'options' for the new Camaro.

Yes -- we are alienating some people with the handling issue - but we are also capturing many more buyers for the other things the new Camaro offers.

I've said it for years and I continue to say it: No matter what one does to the Camaro - some are going to passionately love it and others are going to passionately hate it.

The product planner has to get it right or there's a disaster. And further, he/she will always be second-guessed by those who don't have a financial risk.......

I'd say the new Camaro is not a disaster.

How 'bout you?

-- meanwhile - Hope all is well with you and your Bride and the rest of the family -- been too long since I've seen you!

67 LS-1 & T-56

Dude, SS.

Fbodfather

I should have been more specific........

I started to read thru the thread and realized that it's the same argument **again** -- and that nothing new, in essence, was being said........

Adam4356

Kinda shocked myself on the criticism some have leveled at the new camaro. Especially when it's based on subjectives and opinions. I've read all the mags like everyone else. Never came to the conclusion that it handled like poop or took a back seat to the mustang. Heck, especially comparing stock vs track pack.


I'd like to see GM offer a suspension package. Would like to see careful design. Not just summer only tire and a wheel option.


That is something i would assume has been in the works.

Power is fine. Would gladly drop a few ponies for suspenion. It's at that point IMO.

Overall, i think GM did right with the F5. Perhaps it is somewhat compliant in suspension settings OE. A plus for many many people. Fix it and move on. I take nothing away from that car in current form. good people came up with a good car.

PacerX

I think the sales numbers so far speak volumes. It's been a home run.

It has been the first car, beyond Corvette or the CTS, that GM has hit out of the park early that I can remember in a long, long time.

It will not get the "GM finally fixed it, then they killed it" reputation that so many GM cars in the past have had.


For this generation, incremental improvement is very, very important. Handling, power, interior...

But the true key to the future success of GM as a whole, and Camaro in particular is:

Don't let it get long in the tooth. 4 years, 5 years max... then BAM! a whole new car.

WhiteHawk

I don't know the plans for the Z28 other than what is rumored here, but it is like you are assuming that they are not going to change the suspension? Why wouldn't they change the suspension? Your statement implies that they can only do one or the other, and I don't think that info is even out yet.

-Geoff

Z284ever

Agreed.


I also hope all is well with your plans Pacer.

SSbaby

Gee. AutoX sounds like a PITA. Aren't there any 'real' racetracks like the Grand West Course you can race at? Now that looks like an exciting circuit.

I buy a V8 to occasionally hit 120mph and listen to the engine sing. The Camaro is my ultimate car for that type of driving - I still dream it will arrive down here, one day (when the sales drop off, perhaps). The odd sweeper is exciting too, but I'd be damn if I have to hustle a big car around a circuit that resembles my clothesline.

If I were AutoXing, The last car I'd get would be a V8 unless it's a sportscar like a Corvette.

HAZ-Matt

Wow, a few really thoughtful points and a lot of craziness.
Yeah, if autocross was the be all and end all then we should all be in Miatas, or better yet import some Cappuccinos. Given the right AutoX course, I could probably bicycle around quicker than an Enzo, ZR1, Viper ACR, or whathaveyou.

It would be nice if I got to drive a new SS around a track so I could see how "horrible" it is. It is all relative however. My 2000 Firebird handled much better than the 1990 Camry it replaced... however, I am sure most wouldn't consider a 4th Gen the benchmark of handling, now or 10 years ago. That said, when the car got Bilsteins and 1LE front bar it was night and day. So much so that when I bought my Formula it was pretty disappointing to drive compared to my V6... until it got Konis.

Like I said before, it would be nice to have a point of reference, but I suspect the Camaro SS suspension tuning does give it broader appeal. I can accept a little compromise if it results in sales success. It would be nice if it had a handling package from the factory, but it isn't the end of the world if you have to go aftermarket. I don't race the car in any events where it has to be stock though.