Z28Wilson

Edited for clarification.

The S197 Mustang looks just fine on paper, plus ~150 #s or so for IRS. Just daydreaming I guess. And, there was nothing untruthful about what Charlie said, so I don't know what the sensitivity is all about.

guionM

I have a question.

What exactly would you shave off to get that 300 pound savings without going over $5,000 while still maintaining the same safety and durability standards while maintaining the same profit margin???

Items to consider.

1. Any changes in body material is going to have to go through long and tough durability tests. Carbon fiber is expensive and used on just to fenders and hoods, is relitively brittle, and isn't going to save very much in weight.

2. The Z06 Corvette went under a weight loss program to create the ZR1, yet the ZR1 gained over 200 pounds over the Z06. Yet, the same upgrades you point to are almost identical to the ZR1 over the Z06. You can bet the farm that same weight gain is going to happen to your proposed Z28 as well. Here's why:

* Bigger brakes: add weight.
* Supercharger and stronger engine block & internals: add lots of weight.
* Stronger drivetrain components to withstand over 500 horsepower: add more weight.
A suspension upgraded to handle this additional weight: add even more weight.

You take out weight on suspension parts you're either going to send prices up alot or you're going to see alot of people breaking the car and it's going to get a reputation that isn't going to be stellar.


In short, any idea that you're going to create any LSa powered Camaro that's going to be lighter than a Camaro SS while only being $5,000 more is simply a fantasy.

BigBlueCruiser

Maybe they can get a hundred pounds out of it and stuff a mass produced version of the LS7 in it.

That'll do the trick.

guionM

1. The SN197 Mustang GT is about 3550.
2. The SN 197 Mustang GT with IRS would be around 3700-3750.
3. I agree it's perfectly fine for an IRS 300-400 horse car. GTO was about that.
4. I disagree with your so-called fix of my statement, and I will explain why in a second.

There is no sensitivity. I'm a person that doesn't believe in whining. If there's a problem, either explain how to fix it or show examples that it can be done that make sense within whatever boarders are required.

I'm the type of person who asks alot of questions, and actually listens to the answers. I also like to check on answers and have no issues with answers I don't like and realize when what I want or believe aren't backed up by facts I have access to answers. I'm not swayed by opinions when there is nothing to back them up. When I lay challenges to prove me wrong, I see it as much as a learning process for myself as a chance to challenge or change my own views.

Not all people can do that.

Going back to your editing my quote, here's the issue.

The Ford Mustang will never go more than 155 mph. It doesn't matter if you get the Mustang GT, or the Shelby GT500. Higher speeds equal higher stresses on the chassis. Since all Mustangs are governed to 155, the chassis they are on don't have to be engineered for the stresses and stability to run 170, 180, or even 200 mph. That means that the chassis itself doesn't need to be as heavy as a chassis that is engineered for this, ie: Zeta and even the LX.

Whether a Camaro is based on a full sized car is irrelevent.

One can create a full sized car out of the mid sized Espilon by widening the Malibu and lengthening it 9" (which will happen). The IRS Lincoln LS weighed 3600 pounds in V6 form. Yet the live axle Mustang it's based on weighs less than that in V8 form.

Again, asking questions and actually listening to answers (even when it doesn't agree with what you believe) is a pretty good policy.

Zeta is actually a very good chassis.

It's engineered to be made in different configurations and proportions for alot less money than it would normally cost. It's actually light for it's size. It's extremely space efficient (the G8 is the same size as the STS, yet the STS has a Mustang-like 13.8 cu-ft trunk while the G8 has huge 17.5 and more rear seat space as well). Zeta is also capable of handling well in excess of 500 horsepower. The "Sigma 2" (the wider Sigma that carries the STS and new CTS) are capable of handling the power, but it would cost more.... and you think Camar's truck is small now, it would be significantly smaller on Sigma without a rear deck height approaching that of the Mustang.... not a pretty thought.

It was expensive to create a Camaro based off of Sigma, but on the Zeta it was far cheaper. Weight was a wash. Any notion of high powered V8 Camaro would be a non-starter without this chassis.

I guess we could have a Camaro, speed goverened to 155 mph like the Mustangs and get the SS weight down to 3700 pounds, and lose the IRS to bring it back to the 3500 pound area. I suppose we don't need Brembo brakes and large tires and rims which would probally save 10-15 pounds per corner and lose another 40-60 pounds, which would bring us below the 3500 pound mark.

But would you you want that?

As I've said in every post on this subject: If you want a lighter car, what are you prepared to give up..... there's no free rides.

The volume of LS7s sold wouldn't make mass production worth it. It's a bit more involved than the run of the mill LS3.

100 pounds is probably the most credible number I've heard here, and actually quite reasonable. But that's still going require giving up something. Perhaps insulation or A/C, Being you're stuffing a more powerful engine in, you wouldn't pull any weight out of the drivetrain, assuming you wouldn't need to beef up anything.

But in the end, you'd have a more expensive car while it feeling cheaper than the SS. Very few people will go for than. The question is is it enough to make up the investment and cover certification.

Z284ever

Zeta's a nice platform, but if I have to hear one more time about how "flexible" it is, I am going to vomit.

The proof is in the pudding, and what we are getting/gotten from Zeta is:

1) A large, heavy sedan.

2) A large, heavy coupe.

3) A large, heavy, trucklette-thingy.

See the common theme here?

Where exactly is all this flex? Is it flexible because the wheels can be moved a couple of inches back and forth?

As far as it's ability to have a large back seat and trunk - well, that's great - for a large sedan.

BigBlueCruiser

The LS7 can be built on the LS3 assembly line. It's simply a big bore stroker LS3. Throw out the exotic stuff like Ti rods and valves and CNC on the heads. LS7 head is simply a CNC ported LS3 head. There would be almost no marginal cost over running the LS7s one day out of the week on the assembly line.

The TR6060 tranny requires no upgrade from the SS. The rear end I have no idea.

As far as the 100 pounds go. That's where the Camaro M.E.'s are going to have to earn their pay. If they can't get 100 pounds out for $5K they need to hire a new set.

How about lightweight seats for a starter.

downwithmustang

No you misunderstand me. I said an lightweight LS3 cam Camaro for no more than $5,000. I care less for a LSA. I don't want I Camaro that weights more than a Cobra

jg95z28

Without trying to sound like a broken record...

Stick this in the Z/28!

Bob Cosby

How do you add 200 lbs with just the IRS setup? Even the band-aid IRS on the SN95 platform added *only* 95 lbs.

No comprende'.

Z284ever

Yeah, you don't - not even close.

Bob Cosby

Hmmm...aren't BMW's still artificially limited to 155 mph?

HAZ-Matt

Yes they are. Pretty much all German cars are except the real super cars. Take off the limiter on the M5 and it does 200mph for example.

Justice Pete

I rented a car a few weeks ago. It was a stripper Ford with crank windows. My kids got in the car and asked what those things were on the doors as in you mean you have to turn this thing to put the window down? Yep and you have to push the button to lock the doors too.

I'll get flamed for this... The new Camaro is a bigger car because the last Camaro interior had limited functionality and market appeal. When a car grows dimensionally, with more safety features, with more what used to be luxury features that now must be standard equipment they gain weight.

305fan

Only logical choice is the 556HP LSA

There won't be any lighweight, hopped up LS3---Camaro would never get an exclusive engine....costs too much. And reducing weight costs too.

IZ28

The 5th Gen is smaller than the 4th. Your other points are valid though.