91_z28_4me

Yeah, OK. Whatever helps get you through the day.

Even with 550 hp the next Z51 Vette (6.2 NA 450 horses and probably the same weight) will run away from a GT500 on a road course. The Z06 doesn't even need to get involved in this one.

Nope but they will void the warrenty and something will give. And I doubt 600 hp will be passe anytime soon. Maybe ever.

[qouote]LS7 is a great engine, but it has limitations. Compression is already maxed out and so are the cylinder walls. There is almost no room to grow with that engine. Camshaft, long tubes and intake is about all you can do...and even then, it barely nudges 500rwhp.[/quote]
Bore and stroke may be maxed but lets get some things straight. The LS7 has room to make more power. How about VVT? How about DI? I don't think you can say that the small block is even remotely maxed out yet. Heck GM is going to release its own SC V8 in the near future, it will cost less and make more power than the LS7 but the LS7 served a very valuable purpose. The Mod motors are maxed out that is why Ford is moving to a bigger bore spaced OHC V8 engine series the previously named Hurricanes, now named Boss.

There is no 07 Cobra. There is an 07 Shelby GT500. And the platform is not what it could be. Ford is trying to get to many things out of the Mustang platform. The Mustang needs to be cheap to produce to make the high volume low profit V6 models viable. In saving money they skimped some areas that they could have done more in. Say interior materials, or drivetrain weight. Or overall weight, lets face it weight is the enemy of performance and fuel economy BOTH of which are important to Pony cars. The only room left in that engine is to up the boost. At some point something will give.

We will be getting at least 1 6.2 L V8, maybe a supercharged version from the factory. Be glad that you will have plenty of power to take on the new Ford Boss V8s and quit jumping on the GT500 is awesome because it has a powerful motor bandwagon. If the SC 5.4 were lighter and didn't add a few hundred pounds to the Mustang GTs weight then I would be more impressed but at this point I am not to impressed by it.

greg_nate

I knew I'd get a bite with that post.

We're not talking road courses in this thread - never did, never will. And for that matter, no one yet knows how the 5th gen will pan out in a road course. Let's leave the road courses to those cars designed for the road course - that list includes neither the Mustang, nor the Camaro.

Intake and exhaust voiding the warranty? Nope. Pulley maybe. But that's not the point. The point is this: Warranty has never stopped anyone from modding their car. This entire website and countless others owe their existence to those who mod under warranty. I had my heads and headers on my living room floor a month before I even picked up the Vette new from the showroom floor. Before I drove my SS home from the dealership, they had installed an aftermarket exhaust and intake...and by the way, the dealership did this with the car under warranty.

Try again.

Visit a Viper forum or a Supra forum. 1000 hp is already passe. Visit a Vette forum, and you'll find that 500-600 hp is already passe.

Try again, again.

Stick to the point of the quote - which is that the Mustang will see 550+rwhp with bolt-ons and a tune. Its being done already.

So tell me where I can go to have VVT installed in my LS1. While you're at it, direct me to the nearest garage that will setup DI for my LS1.

I am talking about modding a car - you are talking about factory design. Apples and oranges. No one said the small block was maxed out. However, the LS7, as it sits today, most certainly is maxed out. I agree it is a great engine. But an LS7 with VVT and DI is no longer an LS7 - it is something else - probably not even an LS designation anymore.

When GM release their supercharged engine, then we'll really let the modding begin. But until then, we're not talking about crystal ball engines. While you brag about what GM is going to build in the future, the Stangers are tearing up the streets with what they have now. One is dreaming, the other is living.

Who cares what it "could be"? I don't. Neither do the guys who spent $1,000 in small parts and put down 550rwhp on the dyno.

You guys said the same thing about the '03/04 Cobras: "They're bloated, their suspension is low tech, the engine is flimsy"...yadda, yadda, yadda. And what did all that whining prove? Nothing. At the end of the day when it comes to street racing, the Cobras kicked azz. I don't like it more than anyone else, but it doesn't help denying the truth.

[/quote]

You don't know what we will be getting...and for that matter, we won't be getting anything "FOR THREE MORE YEARS". WAKE THE HECK UP !! I am not cheerleading for *ANY* Ford product. But I am also not living in a world of make believe and "what if ..."

GoFast908Z

Sorry, no. Both cars are WAY lighter than the stang. It won't touch the Vette or the Viper in stock form.

Wait till people SC or turbo the LS7. You'll see crazy numbers. Hmmm FI ford = 500 flywheel. NA Chev = 505 flywheel. Insert FI on the Chev......ford guys go home crying and curse their upgraded pulley that didn't help agains the FI Chev. Not trying to get into the FI/ N/A debate, but i'm saying the potential of the LS7 is by no way tapped out.

GoFast908Z

and the FI 5.4 is so great? The cylinder walls are maxed out cuz its a 7 LITER 427 small block!

Chev got more power than the ford with displacement only. No need for FI. So really the ford is the one more limited. A pulley can only do so much, then you have to punch out the motor.....lots of other pricey stuff. To counter this....uh....FI the LS7. Game over.

91_z28_4me

BS there are TONS fo Camaro's and Mustangs that do road courses. And believe it or not most roads aren't 100% straight! That means that road manners are dictated by how well suspension and the whole chassis corner and absorb bumps, something that the IRS Camaro will do better than the current SRA Mustang.


I am pretty sure that if you have something like Long tube headers and you pull into a dealer complaining that your car is hesitating or having some sort of powertrain problem they can easily deny your warrenty. Though I have never had a car that was new so I couldn't tell you for sure. Sure there are people that mod their cars BUT the majority of the people that buy them will never mod them. Even those that buy the GT500. They buy it because it offers more performance than any Mustang in history. Out of the 5-8K GT500s made this year I doubt that more than half will be modded. Call me crazy but I need reliable figures to prove me wrong.


Yeah because there are SO many 1000 hp Vipers on the streets. Heck I can't throw a rock without hitting one around here. And yes there are quite a few 500-600 hp Vettes but that is because there are 500 hp factory Z06s you can buy right now! Not only that but 500 hp really isn't that far from the old Z06s with 405 hp or the current C6s 400 hp. So hmmm....I don't see what your point is.

I didn't say they wouldn't I am saying that it doesn't matter. The mod motors are pretty maxed right now. They can up the boost and that is pretty much it. No bigger displacement no new tech coming. Whereas the Gen IV and Gen V GM small block motors do have new stuff coming. Ford is moving over to a completely different engine architecture! Doesn't that tell you something?

I bet if you have enough money you can get anything done. I mean if we are talking about modding here then ANYTHING is possible IF you have the cash. Oh BTW VVT is on the L92 6.2L V8 that comes in GMT900s and we have confirmation that a variation of this engine will be in the next Camaro. As for DI. I KNOW GM is working on it. The next 3.6 V6 will have it on a high output version. Do you really think that GM is NOT working on it for their performance V8s? You can get it because they haven't released it because their low tech V8s still outperform many other 'performance' engines without it. So why would they release it?

Your right you can't compare cars that are stock to ones that are modded. Only idiots do that. Kinda like what you are doing comparing a modded GT500 to a stock C6 Z06.
You do realize that right now the LS7 is the top small block. It is the Zenith small block so you just contradicted yourself. Actually GM could put DI, VVT, a supercharger, or anything else it wants to and it could still call the engine an LS7. They can do whatever they want because it is THIER call! And I disagree there are VVT LSx series engines coming, LS3 anyone? DI is just another step along the way.
And you are comparing Modded motors to those that are stock. Which as YOU put it is apples to oranges! I would compare what GM has now but GM wins so easy that it isn't a fair comparison, especially since you think the LS7 is maxed out.

Umm...I don't think I have EVER commented publically what I think of the Terminator Cobras so I don't think YOU know what I think. I think they are very cool cars. A bit dated on interior and I definately don't like the shifter position but I like the looks and I like the performance. Hmm...I didn't whine did I?

I am not in the world of make believe. If you think that some people here don't know what is coming your drunk. I will continue follow the bread crumbs, as I have for the last few years, and I will be happy to 'argue' with someone who is ill-informed and ignorant of the next Camaro, which you seem to be. It is almost 07 and production begins at the end of 08, per the GM press release, so that means that it is about 2 years away. And hints are coming in everyday that it may show up sooner than that. You like the GT500 and modding it so much then go buy one. But don't try to convince others that it is the second coming because it isn't. It has flaws. Sure the engine makes great power but it is HUGE and HEAVY. Making a chassis that is decently weighted in other forms a PIG!

Z284ever

Some of you may want to fasten your seatbelts, because I'm going to say something that many of you will find disturbing.........


Beyond a certain point, I just don't care about horsepower anymore. Is a 500 hp car inherently better than a 450 hp car? Is 600 even better? What are the implications for a street driven car? Will traction and durability be an issue? More likely, street cars with that much power, will need massive torque management from the factory, in order to be drivable on street tires.

So what's the point?

Casull

I don't think you are so far off base. I think this is precisely what the person who started the thread about too much horsepower was getting at, or at least this is what it made me think of.

It depends on the application. If you hit the track every weekend and your primary reason for owning a particular car is to race it, then i would say there is a BIG difference in a 600HP car over that of a 450HP car.

However, for the other 99.9% of us who use that car primarily as a daily driver who like to stomp on it every once and awhile when you are the first person at a stop light and the guy with a Mustang rolls up next to you and you have to assert your masculinity; and maybe even take it to the track every once and awhile I would say that there is absolutely no difference between 450HP and 600 mainly because these people (*ahem*--- me) are not skilled enough to make the extra horsepower work for them; nor spend the money to get the car tuned to take full advantage of the added power (ie remove the TM)

Personally, I would like the bragging rights to be able to say, "That's right this thing has 600HP" However, at 450HP, you still have those bragging rights as there are not may production cars you will see on a daily basis that can top that anyway.

greg_nate

Three things:

1. It would help to read the original post.
2. I am not talking about stock form. You'd know this if you read the original post. I am talking about the ability to mod. My statement still stands.
3. At 11:1 compression, we're not going to be seeing any turbos/superchargers on these things. Nitrous yes, SC no.

I still stand by my statement, that as a moddable platform, the Stang wins.

GoFast908Z

1. read it.
2. read it. The stock starting point before modding is important information before modding starts. dee da dee.
3. No idiot is gonna boost on 11:1 compression. You lower the compression! DUH!!! I'm gonna think of u when i see my first FI LS7.

I stand by my statement....you are losing the arguement.

Z284ever

Yeah, but you don't get 600hp in a vacuum. There is no free lunch. 600 hp requires you to add more weight in powertrain, structure, components, etc. More cost for all that stuff too. And how exactly do you get all that power to the ground effectively in a street car? There is a point of diminishing returns, and I think for cars like the GT500, we've crossed that tipping point. After awhile it's just a dog chasing his tail.

BTW, yesterday I happened to strike up a convo with two GT500 owners. I asked them both what it was like to drive. For that kind of power, I was expecting some version of WOW! or AWESOME! or something. They gave generally positive comments......but not the excitement that I'd expect. Just goes to show......

91_z28_4me

In refrence to Charlie's comments: I personally would be happier with a 430 hp 3500 lb Camaro than a 500 hp 4000 lb Camaro.

Better gas mileage, handling, and overall easier to handle all sound good to me.

greg_nate

Oh gawd. I am not losing anything except interest.

Try reading it yet again. Sure, you can yank the engine, pull the crank and the pistons, etc., install a new set, put the engine back in, install said supercharger and retune. Have fun. Let me know how your credit card balance works out for ya.

Hardly a bolt-on situation.

The point of the original post was that for a small amount of money, and nowhere near the amount of work, the Mustang's setup is the best bang for the buck.

p.s. Go ahead and think of me all you want...its kind of weird, but to each their own.

GoFast908Z

bolt ons will do great things on teh stang. however..... its a dyno queen.

RussStang

Z06s have already made over 600rwhp with stock heads/intake. I don't have any idea what you are talking about here.

Again, I am not really sure what you are talking about here. GM could do plenty more to the LS7 to get more power out of it. Maybe adding a bunch of techno goodies would change it's designation, but it would still be the same basic engine setup as an LS7, in the same way an LS6 is still an LS1 style engine.

If you are somehow implying that the engine is maxed in the factory showroom as far as enthusiasts modding it goes, then you are very mistaken. With the head flow the LS7's heads are capable of, over 700 crank hp should be attainable, and without that much drama considering not too much if anything is going to need to be done to the stock bottom end (maybe the stock pistons could be swapped out for forged, but I am not sure anyone knows how far the stockers will go).

I am not trying to say the DOHC 5.4 blower engine Ford uses in the GT500 is bad. I am sure it will make big numbers. You are making it sound too much like there is nothing that can be done to the LS7 though. Yeah, doing a camswap will void your warranty, but a swapped pulley WILL void the warranty as well. The LS7 isn't going to take a lot of money, relatively, to make gobs of power as well. The only thing it may give up in the process is emissions, so if that is a concern it is worth noting.

RussStang

Maybe a really fast dyno queen.