Good god guys get a grip!!!!
07-23-2008, 02:52 AM
#106
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Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Stockton, Ca. USA
Posts: 666
You don't even know your cars so how am I to answer silly comments.
I gather you meant the Shelby GT500 as you cannot possibly imply the Shelby GT? But as I said, you don't know your cars...
You really are being silly here. Regardless of how much experience I've had with Mustangs or Camaros, I've had a 500hp LS1 that I tuned myself. So how much of a man does that make you?
I gather you meant the Shelby GT500 as you cannot possibly imply the Shelby GT? But as I said, you don't know your cars...
You really are being silly here. Regardless of how much experience I've had with Mustangs or Camaros, I've had a 500hp LS1 that I tuned myself. So how much of a man does that make you?
07-23-2008, 02:57 AM
#107
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Heck, the GM engineers must be liers. Your credibility is taking you to new heights.
07-23-2008, 03:09 AM
#108
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Lincoln Park, MI US
Posts: 446
Obviously we don't know how the Camaro will stack up against a Shelby GT. But I DO know that a GT500 will get beat by a Shelby GT (which are not even 350hp cars) on a tight road course.
07-23-2008, 03:17 AM
#109
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
It's not a stripper at all. In fact it's pretty well equipped. It doesn't have an auto trans (+100 pounds over the T-5) or T-Tops (+30 pounds over coupe), but it has PW, PDL, tilt, and every performance option including engine oil cooler and dual cats.
And while we're on the subject of 3rd gens, a total strippo, (as in no AC, radio or power anything), I4/M4, Camaro coupe weighed under 2900 pounds.
And while we're on the subject of 3rd gens, a total strippo, (as in no AC, radio or power anything), I4/M4, Camaro coupe weighed under 2900 pounds.
My '85 A4 IROC-Z was just about the same weight as my '02 A4, according to the little GVW label. Neither has T-tops. They're a bit over 3500. Note that I'm assuming a GVW of 4200 and some odd pounds followed by a payload of 700 indicates a curb weight of 3500 and some odd. But I haven't weighed it to check that.
I4/M4 @ 2900? That's heavier than a Monza. What a porker. I'd buy an I4/M4 Monza instead, since it's 200 pounds lighter.
Wait. I had one of those.... 
So does your replying to just that piece of the post imply that the rest made sense?
07-23-2008, 03:21 AM
#110
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Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Stockton, Ca. USA
Posts: 666
Do these GM engineers you know personally run the new Camaro up against the Shelby? I doubt it. The Shelby GT is a totally different car than the regular GT. I go by the results I see racing, not from some magazine article. Get some real world experience then come talk to me
07-23-2008, 03:22 AM
#111
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Whether it's faster than the Camaro SS will depend at least in part on how bumpy the road course is, given the lack of IRS on the Shelby GT.
07-23-2008, 03:26 AM
#112
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Lincoln Park, MI US
Posts: 446
07-23-2008, 03:28 AM
#113
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Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Stockton, Ca. USA
Posts: 666
To let everyone know I am not a Camaro basher. The car has a great motor, tranny, awesome brakes and looks great, but the weight, for me is just too much. I still might get one for a weekend cruiser since my SS is pretty much a race car now.
07-23-2008, 03:35 AM
#114
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Lincoln Park, MI US
Posts: 446
yea, its a heavy sucker, but there is one thing that the Camaro has going for it, its fairly equal in weight distribution, the GT500's extra weight is almost entirely in the front end.
So the Camaro has the potential to be a better handling car even with the weight. I will however reserve judgement for when they actually are on the street, and see how they do.
I can see them being as good a handler (though it may not feel like it) as the SGT with some suspension upgrades done to the Camaro, but then the SGT isn't anywhere near the best handing Mustang out there...
So the Camaro has the potential to be a better handling car even with the weight. I will however reserve judgement for when they actually are on the street, and see how they do.
I can see them being as good a handler (though it may not feel like it) as the SGT with some suspension upgrades done to the Camaro, but then the SGT isn't anywhere near the best handing Mustang out there...
07-23-2008, 03:44 AM
#115
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 61
Yea, you can get them for under MSRP, but MSRP is still around 40K give or take depending on options.
And yes they are great cars for smaller tracks (on larger tracks a lack of power might start to negate cornering ability), but how much time is spent on track? If you want a race car that's one thing, but if you are looking to actually drive the car, I'm betting that there's more to the buying decision than just how fast it is or how well it will take a tight corner.
And yes they are great cars for smaller tracks (on larger tracks a lack of power might start to negate cornering ability), but how much time is spent on track? If you want a race car that's one thing, but if you are looking to actually drive the car, I'm betting that there's more to the buying decision than just how fast it is or how well it will take a tight corner.
The Shelby GT has an MSRP of around 30 grand, 315hp at 3500 pounds, she's the darling of autox events.
The Shelby GT500 has an MSRP of around 42 grand, that's the 500hp piglet monster.
I think in an actual racing enviroment the whole SRA/IRS debate has been blown far out of proportion. It's a debate that should be reserved for the daily drive.
Last edited by TCMcQueen; 07-23-2008 at 03:49 AM.
07-23-2008, 03:47 AM
#116
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
You are correct and you know why? Because the GT 500 is too fn heavy, Just like the new Camaro.
To let everyone know I am not a Camaro basher. The car has a great motor, tranny, awesome brakes and looks great, but the weight, for me is just too much. I still might get one for a weekend cruiser since my SS is pretty much a race car now.
To let everyone know I am not a Camaro basher. The car has a great motor, tranny, awesome brakes and looks great, but the weight, for me is just too much. I still might get one for a weekend cruiser since my SS is pretty much a race car now.
07-23-2008, 03:52 AM
#117
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Lincoln Park, MI US
Posts: 446
Sorry dude, I am NOT mixing up my rides, SGTs START at about 38k its a $9500 package on top of the GT price. I saw one about 4 days ago for 43k at a dealer.
The GT500 base price is about 41-42K with a about a $1900 gas guzzler tax.
This is of course MSRP and the SGTs can now be had at a discount much of the time.
The GT500 base price is about 41-42K with a about a $1900 gas guzzler tax.
This is of course MSRP and the SGTs can now be had at a discount much of the time.
07-23-2008, 03:52 AM
#118
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Take this for what it's worth but I've never felt my SRA has held me back in the twisties. It's damned near broken my back a few times but it seems to do just fine. The problem with the S197 isn't that it can handle well, it's just that to handle well the driver needs to shove their nagging mortality off the the side. I've beaten on my car like a madman through some crazy winding and bumpy roads, never lost control, but I have scared the jesus right out of me. The car FEELS like it's going to loose control and kill you even when it's not.
I won't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I thought it was generally accepted that IRS is better than SRA on bumpy roads. Do you disagree? [ I don't want to argue -- I'm just wondering if that was your point above, or if it was merely that SRA is good enough for you ]
07-23-2008, 04:06 AM
#119
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 61
The SRA in my Camaro doesn't bother me either. But on a bumpy road in a turn, you can feel the rear end dance a little bit.
I won't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I thought it was generally accepted that IRS is better than SRA on bumpy roads. Do you disagree? [ I don't want to argue -- I'm just wondering if that was your point above, or if it was merely that SRA is good enough for you ]
I won't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I thought it was generally accepted that IRS is better than SRA on bumpy roads. Do you disagree? [ I don't want to argue -- I'm just wondering if that was your point above, or if it was merely that SRA is good enough for you ]
For example, I can take a certain turn on Sepulveda (if anyone lives in LA they probably know which turn) at about 65, any higher and I can feel the back end stepping out. It's a perfectly well paved pristine road (runs through a wealthy area). Now I can take another turn on a freeway off-ramp, very similar, about the same curvature at 65 as well even though the road is absolute garbage. But on this road it feels like my car is just going to tip over and explode. There's a disconnect from me to my wheels in this situation. I know I'm perfectly fine, but it just doesn't feel like it because the SRA is "dancing".
It took me a long time to muster up the courage to try that off ramp curve at that speed. I always felt anything above 40 would send my car off the off-ramp and into someone's house.
And to answer your final question, no I'm not satisfied with my Mustang's handling. I think it handles and feels like a boat. At 3600+ it's just too heavy and I feel the weight in tight corners. It's why I'm so frothing at the mouth rabid angry with the camaro's weight. All I wanted the camaro to do with address my Mustang's handling problems, and honestly, while I haven't driven the new camaro I'm just concerned about how we're going to overcome that extra 300 pounds.
I'm seriously considering at this point to lemon out the mustang and get a used C6 Z51. I've found a few for 30,000 with low miles, practically a steal. It's getting hard to wait for the camaro.
Last edited by TCMcQueen; 07-23-2008 at 04:10 AM.
07-23-2008, 04:28 AM
#120
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Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 394
The Shelby GT now starts at $35.9k and has a $1k gas guzzler tax. There's also a California model now that's basically the same car painted orange and it starts in the low $40's.