The gauntlet...
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Charlie can speak for himself, but your comment on his logic was way off.
I Still don't see how Ford is playing catch up to a car that doesn't exist yet. And even if it is, or will, or was, or might....how can you even make such a claim when you also noted (correctly) that "There is just too much unknow on all these car....".
Too much unknown indeed.
Bob
I Still don't see how Ford is playing catch up to a car that doesn't exist yet. And even if it is, or will, or was, or might....how can you even make such a claim when you also noted (correctly) that "There is just too much unknow on all these car....".
Too much unknown indeed.
Bob
They are building a 2010 Camaro are they not? They will have at least over 400 HP in the standard V8 from what we have learned? GM has stepped up the interior quality in all the new cars and truck they have intro'ed in the last year and a half? The Camaro it getting a Independent rear? There are more things we could list that we do know but the point is it is a given being a new car the Camaro will be ahead of the present Mustangs in most areas. A new Mustang will have to improve on the past model to meet many of the new Camaros offerings.
What we do know the Camaro is going to be a leap ahead of the present Mustang.
I expect Ford will have to take their present platform and gain on or surpass where GM improved with their new car and try to advance their model. In turn GM will look for was to best Fords best efforts. This is what has gone on many of the years each has competed with one another. History has proven this true, would there have been a Boss with out a Z28, would there have been a Z28 with out a Shelby?
I am betting the engineers at Ford are glad the Camaro is coming as this will let them do many of the things they wanted to do but were not permited to when they had no Chevy compitition.
They are fighting for sales here and I excpect neither to take a back seat to the other if they can afford not too.
All I ment in saying catching up is that they will both be doing what they can to leap frog the other anyway they can for the publics dollar. Trying to be the best or class leader is each goal.
It is easy to build a expensive great car but in this class to build a great car cheaply and still make a profit is saying something!
No matter what the Coupe market will be a hard sell for all involved. The Mustang is one of the few that has been able to sell in any great volume the last few years. That is Chevys great challange.
Last edited by hyperv6; Nov 23, 2007 at 02:26 PM.
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They are building a 2010 Camaro are they not? They will have at least over 400 HP in the standard V8 from what we have learned? GM has stepped up the interior quality in all the new cars and truck they have intro'ed in the last year and a half? The Camaro it getting a Independent rear? There are more things we could list that we do know but the point is it is a given being a new car the Camaro will be ahead of the present Mustangs in most areas. A new Mustang will have to improve on the past model to meet many of the new Camaros offerings.
What we do know the Camaro is going to be a leap ahead of the present Mustang.
What we do know the Camaro is going to be a leap ahead of the present Mustang.
That said....based on what we've seen here and other places, it is quite possible that once the new Camaro is on the streets, Mustang could indeed need to be "catching up". At which point, the scenario you detailed below takes over.
I expect Ford will have to take their present platform and gain on or surpass where GM improved with their new car and try to advance their model. In turn GM will look for was to best Fords best efforts. This is what has gone on many of the years each has competed with one another.
History has proven this true, would there have been a Boss with out a Z28, would there have been a Z28 with out a Shelby?
I am betting the engineers at Ford are glad the Camaro is coming as this will let them do many of the things they wanted to do but were not permited to when they had no Chevy compitition.
They are fighting for sales here and I excpect neither to take a back seat to the other if they can afford not too.
All I ment in saying catching up is that they will both be doing what they can to leap frog the other anyway they can for the publics dollar. Trying to be the best or class leader is each goal.
It is easy to build a expensive great car but in this class to build a great car cheaply and still make a profit is saying something!
No matter what the Coupe market will be a hard sell for all involved. The Mustang is one of the few that has been able to sell in any great volume the last few years. That is Chevys great challange.
No matter what the Coupe market will be a hard sell for all involved. The Mustang is one of the few that has been able to sell in any great volume the last few years. That is Chevys great challange.
Bob
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I simply don't believe 20-somethings will swarm over to Hyundai. Hyundai has no heritage, and no racing history. Most 20-somethings are all about image. My 21 year old drives an Audi A4 for a reason... image. Before that he drove an M3... image. While Hyundai has certainly changed buyer's impressions from when they first entered the auto market here in the States; they for the most part have only been purchased by older family oriented folks looking for a bargain. That could all change, however unless Hyundai does something drastically to change those impressions, they won't be as big of an impact as you think. Yes they'll sell, and if they perform well and are a bargin, educated enthusiasts will certainly take notice. However it won't be a massive flood of buyers and more than likely be a mere trickle.
I see the writing on the wall. Hyundai will be taking a big slice of the pie, once reserved soley for Camaro and Mustang. And if Mustang goes smaller circa 11/12, Camaro will be left in one size class larger than both of them for the remainder of it's run. And if you're trying to compete in the cut throat, 2+2, sporty coupe market, being larger is not a good thing. But that ship has sailed for Camaro...
Last edited by Z284ever; Nov 23, 2007 at 04:38 PM.
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I have been sitting right here for the last 40 years. whats that got to do with present and future models. I thought we were talking about present and future Mustangs and Camaros?
My concept of the new Mustang catching up is that the new Camaro from what little we do know it will be ahead in perfromance, options, styling and quality compared to the present Mustang. The Camaro is leap frogging Ford just as in the past in most areas and will be late but a better car.
The Mustang has only sold more cars many years because it was cheaper most of those years where both were available. GM was only behind in sales but not all other areas. Besides profit is what we need to worry about, is GM making money on the car.
If your so worried about the future models they why do drag my comments back 40 years?
There is just too much unknow on all these car to those here to start getting all worked up yet.
As for Image of the Malibu those at GM have already stated it may take till the next generation to start to undo what damage has been done for the last 25 years. The fact is they have to build a better car first and with the Bu they have.
Now is the time to start build a new image on a great car. Lutz has already stated GM is not going to win buyers back in 12-18 months. With this said we know they have long term goals set and have resonable expectations of their cars as well expectations of what the compitition is doing. GM is in good hands skilled and smart Automotive minds right now and not in the hands a lot of pretenders on the internet [including myself]. GM is in good hands.
It was not all that long ago Hyundia the [first Elan] ment Walking in Korean for most Americans because of really bad cars and now your worried about them competing. They too started with building a better cars first just as GM is now doing. It tooks some time but the past is forgotten with price and quality. Everyone hates Walmart but most shop there as they get a lot for their money. That is the key to Chevys future.
There are so many market, money and technology issue ahead that the automotive market may change as much or more than it has in any time in the past. Not all the player will make it. GM right now has a lot better chance than a few years ago and and it is improving 1 day at a time.
It is a time for hard work on building the best cars GM can and marketing them better. this is not time for getting too overly dramatic on thowing gauntlets.
My concept of the new Mustang catching up is that the new Camaro from what little we do know it will be ahead in perfromance, options, styling and quality compared to the present Mustang. The Camaro is leap frogging Ford just as in the past in most areas and will be late but a better car.
The Mustang has only sold more cars many years because it was cheaper most of those years where both were available. GM was only behind in sales but not all other areas. Besides profit is what we need to worry about, is GM making money on the car.
If your so worried about the future models they why do drag my comments back 40 years?
There is just too much unknow on all these car to those here to start getting all worked up yet.
As for Image of the Malibu those at GM have already stated it may take till the next generation to start to undo what damage has been done for the last 25 years. The fact is they have to build a better car first and with the Bu they have.
Now is the time to start build a new image on a great car. Lutz has already stated GM is not going to win buyers back in 12-18 months. With this said we know they have long term goals set and have resonable expectations of their cars as well expectations of what the compitition is doing. GM is in good hands skilled and smart Automotive minds right now and not in the hands a lot of pretenders on the internet [including myself]. GM is in good hands.
It was not all that long ago Hyundia the [first Elan] ment Walking in Korean for most Americans because of really bad cars and now your worried about them competing. They too started with building a better cars first just as GM is now doing. It tooks some time but the past is forgotten with price and quality. Everyone hates Walmart but most shop there as they get a lot for their money. That is the key to Chevys future.
There are so many market, money and technology issue ahead that the automotive market may change as much or more than it has in any time in the past. Not all the player will make it. GM right now has a lot better chance than a few years ago and and it is improving 1 day at a time.
It is a time for hard work on building the best cars GM can and marketing them better. this is not time for getting too overly dramatic on thowing gauntlets.
Then 2011 will see the new Huntsman being that it will be smaller in all dimensions except with and wb and this may really throw the Camaros intial great launch off due to the fact that this chassis will yield the new Mustang to a lighter, better handling and more nimble chassis with a big motor similar to the Fox Body mustangs.
So as far as the new Camaro being ahead of the 2010 Mustang in almost all aspects I think that this will not be the case. The S197 is not the SN95 were talking about, its a very proven chassis and the past 5 years its been around has only made it better. The 2010 Mustang will not be an anemic performer like what the 4th Gen had to deal with. With the new 3.5.5.0, 5.4 and 5.8 and possibly 6.2 by 2011 model year the revised Mustang will not be the wimp in the Muscle/Pony car game and this is only a fraction of what makes the Pony car such a hot commodity among buyers. Along with the Hunstman coming in 2011 Ford will not be losing customers anytime soon.
Last edited by CamaroZ282008; Nov 23, 2007 at 04:42 PM.
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I see your points and understand where you are coming from. Im not sure if you read my post in the begining of this thread about the 2010 Mustang with a complete exterior redesign with the exception of the roof section. The Interior will be all new with dual zone climate controls, SYNC bluetooth which is one of the best handsfree systems in the industry, Navigation will be an option, upgraded materials much like the new MKS sedan. The powertrains will all be bumped in power from the 3.5 v-6 to the new 3v 5.0 replacing the 4.6, the 5.4 is being revamped with upwards 350 hp. 380 tq. and the 5.8 will be the Camaros main threat with over 400. Then 2 years later the 5.8 and 6.2 along with a 7.0 will get a version of the Twin Force. As far as Engines the Mustang may be short handed in the powertrain compartment like most mustangs have always been, but not by much at all.
Then 2011 will see the new Huntsman being that it will be smaller in all dimensions except with and wb and this may really throw the Camaros intial great launch off due to the fact that this chassis will yield the new Mustang to a lighter, better handling and more nimble chassis with a big motor similar to the Fox Body mustangs.
So as far as the new Camaro being ahead of the 2010 Mustang in almost all aspects I think that this will not be the case. The S197 is not the SN95 were talking about, its a very proven chassis and the past 5 years its been around has only made it better. The 2010 Mustang will not be an anemic performer like what the 4th Gen had to deal with. With the new 3.5.5.0, 5.4 and 5.8 and possibly 6.2 by 2011 model year the revised Mustang will not be the wimp in the Muscle/Pony car game and this is only a fraction of what makes the Pony car such a hot commodity among buyers. Along with the Hunstman coming in 2011 Ford will not be losing customers anytime soon.
Then 2011 will see the new Huntsman being that it will be smaller in all dimensions except with and wb and this may really throw the Camaros intial great launch off due to the fact that this chassis will yield the new Mustang to a lighter, better handling and more nimble chassis with a big motor similar to the Fox Body mustangs.
So as far as the new Camaro being ahead of the 2010 Mustang in almost all aspects I think that this will not be the case. The S197 is not the SN95 were talking about, its a very proven chassis and the past 5 years its been around has only made it better. The 2010 Mustang will not be an anemic performer like what the 4th Gen had to deal with. With the new 3.5.5.0, 5.4 and 5.8 and possibly 6.2 by 2011 model year the revised Mustang will not be the wimp in the Muscle/Pony car game and this is only a fraction of what makes the Pony car such a hot commodity among buyers. Along with the Hunstman coming in 2011 Ford will not be losing customers anytime soon.
I know Ford is not going away and even with the Huntsman coming who is to say the next Camaro may not be off the new smaller Alpha?
The whole point is GM will do what it needs to keep competitive in the future and use what ever is needed and available. Ford is doing that now so I see no reason for GM to change that.
The worse thing in the world is for the Mustang to grow stagnet and not change. I do not want to see any more 8 yerar cycle Camaros. With the way things are at GM I don't see that happening if the compitition keep up and the profits are there.
If they build a better Mustang GM will build a better Camaro as long as they make money.
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Alpha? Who knows circa 2018, 2020, 2222, what form a 6th gen Camaro might take - assuming there even is one.
What we have COMING is the 5th gen - and that my friend is on Zeta. And on Zeta it will stay for years.
About the time Camaro comes out, Mustang will have had a major MCE. Between the 5th gen's second and third year, an all new Mustang will appear. All new, from the ground up. However good or not the Huntsman Mustang might be, we're still locked into a Zeta Camaro for the foreseeable future.
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Yet another doom and gloom post... and this posted on Thanksgiving day. I can't wait to see what holiday cheer can be spread come Christmas.
Hey, here's an idea... the 12 days of Camaro......
On the 12th day of Christmas Chevy brought to me
a car that sits too high
an over weight Camaro
over saturated
out gunned by Hyundai
too much horse power
sacrilegious Program Manager
out designed by Dearborn
no Heeeeeeeeemiiiiiiiiiiiiii
narrow minded focus group
ugh engine covers
big azz B pillar
and a bogus Bumblebee
Hey, here's an idea... the 12 days of Camaro......
On the 12th day of Christmas Chevy brought to me
a car that sits too high
an over weight Camaro
over saturated
out gunned by Hyundai
too much horse power
sacrilegious Program Manager
out designed by Dearborn
no Heeeeeeeeemiiiiiiiiiiiiii
narrow minded focus group
ugh engine covers
big azz B pillar
and a bogus Bumblebee
Last edited by ChrisL; Nov 23, 2007 at 07:45 PM.
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I don't see a small Hyundai coupe, with or without an "unusable" rear seat as competing with Camaro...to me it'd be more suited for Solstice and Sky. Hyundai's sized like the Tiburon are more inline with Cobalts.
That said, GM slapping in V6 super/turbo-charged powerplants in the Solstice and Sky should suffice.
Now if the build something of more comparable dimensions with a RWD/V8..then we'll see.
That said, GM slapping in V6 super/turbo-charged powerplants in the Solstice and Sky should suffice.
Now if the build something of more comparable dimensions with a RWD/V8..then we'll see.
Last edited by 90rocz; Nov 24, 2007 at 01:14 PM.
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i personally wouldnt be too concerned with an import having to face the camaro, especially hyundai. they are 2 totally differnt classes. imports are atractive to certain crowds and american cars are to another. i fall under the other, i lover american muscle. i dont see hyundai being a problem for the camaro no matter what motor is put in it. forget their little v6 turbo, ill take a 6.2 v8 any day.
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DEATH TO GM! HYUNDAI IS BUILDING A RWD COUPE!
Guess what, Toyota is most likely developing one now too... there's rumors....
Who gives a ****?
I dream of the day a sunburst orange metallic SS Camaro graces my driveway.
Not a Hyundai, not a Nissan, not a Ford, not a Toyota.
If GM can't adapt to the market then the car will fail, but at least I'll have mine. An ADAPTABLE Camaro will survive. It's all up to GM..........
Guess what, Toyota is most likely developing one now too... there's rumors....
Who gives a ****?
I dream of the day a sunburst orange metallic SS Camaro graces my driveway.
Not a Hyundai, not a Nissan, not a Ford, not a Toyota. If GM can't adapt to the market then the car will fail, but at least I'll have mine.
An ADAPTABLE Camaro will survive. It's all up to GM..........
Last edited by Silverado C-10; Nov 23, 2007 at 09:47 PM.
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Wether its Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Dodge or Ford against GM Competition will only make every car maker stronger, more focused and the customer will be the one who benefits the most because of these efforts. I personally want to own a 5th Gen, a 2010 Mustang GT and a Challenger Hemi. That is more or less my pipe dream as of now, but I can dream and cannot wait until the day the big three dominate the main strip again. : I want to see the Camaro, Mustang and even Challenger live on for many more generations for my own kids and my grand kids to enjoy one day like I've had the opportunity to enjoy this wonderful hobby/obbession.
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